I\'m a rising HS senior; 4:12 miler with solid SAT\'s/ grades; what are the top schools I should look at?

Off the Grid wrote:

Haverford - if the fit is right for you.

No frats, no deans list, no class rank, no biz major, no football team. It is an academic institution in the true sense of the word. 25% of grads go on to get Phds. Also has the highest med school acceptance rate in the country.

Running is strong there - Tom Donnelly has coached world class atheletes, and turned 11:00 2 milers into DIII All-Ams.

Running is not all there is in life. If you pick a DI program, it will be, possibly to the detriment of your academic career.

Haverford is a decent school, but don't kid yourself if you think it's a good fit for top talent. Donnelly is a good coach, but there are much better - maybe he made underdeveloped kids D3 natl champs, but other than Paranya has he ever developed a top talent in college?

Don't mean to knock this school, but don't think it would be a good fit for a national level talent.

Ohio State is following Wisconsin's lead signing a bunch of 1500/800 types to go along with See and post-college crew.

2-time Olympian coach doesn't hurt.

I would recommend Columbia and Princeton. Both school have obviously solid academics, reputation, and their men's coaching is pretty good as well. Remember that although you might think you can run for all of your life, you will need your education to fall back on one day. That day will most likely (sorry to say) come much sooner than you realize. Use this opportunity to get into the best academic school that you can and then use it for all it's worth.

I second the opinion from a previous poster about Haverford. Although Donnelly is a wizard when it comes to turning under-trained high schoolers into D3 talents and powerhouses, there really aren't any solid examples of national level hs runners being turned into collegiate powerhouses, other than Paranya and maybe a few others.

"Haverford is a decent school, but don't kid yourself if you think it's a good fit for top talent. Donnelly is a good coach, but there are much better - maybe he made underdeveloped kids D3 natl champs, but other than Paranya has he ever developed a top talent in college?

Don't mean to knock this school, but don't think it would be a good fit for a national level talent."

A lot depends on what you define as "top talent". Off the top of my head, Tom has coached Haverford guys who have gone 3:38 (Karl), 3:43 (Bernstein),3:44 (Foley), ~3:45 (O'Neill), 3:46 (Rook). There also are a few more in the 3:45-3:48 range, I think. The average high school mile time of that group was likely 4:25-4:30. When you take this type of improvement and combine it with the work he did with Marcus, Sydney, O'Reilly and the Villanova teams during Jumbo's last few years, I would be interested to hear which coaches are "much better".

The other side of your argument might be that DIII doesn't offer the competitive opportunities of Division I schools. I can see how for some types of runners this might be the case, but look at the recent success of DIII guys (Symmonds, Leer, Bak, etc), not to mention Bobby Curtis who followed a schedule very similar to most schools on the east coast.

I am an alum, so naturally I am biased. Objectively speaking, though, I think a runner of that ability and with that type of background would be just as well served as Haverford as he would be at any of the Ivy's. With his credentials I would be tempted to go to Stanford but I'm not sure of their track record with sub national class milers and there is something to be said by the educational experience of a small liberal arts college.

Good luck with your college choice!

if you're into engineering check out Texas A&M.....one of the nations finest engineering schools with a studly men AND womens team not to mention AMAZING FACILITIES. Indoor Nationals 09!!!!

With his credentials I would be tempted to go to Stanford but I'm not sure of their track record with sub national class milers and there is something to be said by the educational experience of a small liberal arts college.

You bring up good support of the school, but still,you said all the guys you mentioned were 4:20 something guys, who developed well... but have any 4:12ish (what i would say is "sub national class") milers gone to Haverford? Seems he takes decent runners and makes them very good, bot very good runners and makes them great.

Just my (outside) take on it.

skip college. go pro

Ramsey?

It's hilarious that he said "top 15" and yet some of you are throwing out names like USC and U of Washington. Please. I'm sure he wants just to piss away his academic potential just to run at some average running program.

If you want D1, it's Stanford, or the Ivies.

If you want D3, it's MIT, UChicago, WashU, or CMU.

And yes, liberal arts schools like Williams are indeed great schools, but I'm sure he's speaking National Universities as defined by USN&WR, or else he wouldn't have asked.

come on wrote:

It's not like there are that many top-15 academic schools.

Princeton, Stanford, UPenn, Columbia, Dartmouth, and no one's mentioned Duke yet -- all these have people you could train with and have had success now or in the recent past.

Schools just outside the top-15 that are still pretty good academically and good in mid-distance include Notre Dame, Georgetown, Michigan, Virginia, and Cal Berkeley.

Berkeley is normally ranked in the top 3-5 academically... It depends on the subject, but I'd say Stanford is your best bet all around, although I'd be more interested in how much money you'd get if you were not running, so then maybe you where the pants as to how hard you train/ take academics... A girl from my graduating class yet to Harvard on academic scholarship and couldn't handle the athletic expectations and trying to get a real degree in Biology. I'd also see what type of abroad study programs-athletic benefits (dining etc)- expectations to maintain your scholarship-find out exactly what members of the current squad are studying (see if they're forced into bullshit degrees)... Also check out the composition of the school, and see how long student remain in studying for classes. The composition thing may not seem that important, but remember college is when you are most likely going to meet your future spouse etc.

the stinking libs are trying to use civil rights laws to stop ivy/private schools from discriminating. ivy/private schools are clamoring for a correction internally with haggered administrations beset by historic legacy excluding jews, etc. in recent times public university research has exceeded ivy/private schools and are rapidly advancing due to their majority asian staff.

recommender wrote:

I would recommend Columbia and Princeton. Both school have obviously solid academics, reputation, and their men's coaching is pretty good as well. Remember that although you might think you can run for all of your life, you will need your education to fall back on one day. That day will most likely (sorry to say) come much sooner than you realize. Use this opportunity to get into the best academic school that you can and then use it for all it's worth.

I second the opinion from a previous poster about Haverford. Although Donnelly is a wizard when it comes to turning under-trained high schoolers into D3 talents and powerhouses, there really aren't any solid examples of national level hs runners being turned into collegiate powerhouses, other than Paranya and maybe a few others.

this guy was an obvious loser who's running career came up short. with your kind of talent you'd be a fool to go to one of those Ivy League schools. It would be the death of your running career.

1. Princeton University (NJ)

2. Harvard University (MA)

3. Yale University(CT)

4. Stanford University(CA)

5. University of Pennsylvania

5. California Institute of Technology

7. Massachusetts Institute of Technology

8. Duke University(NC)

9. Columbia University(NY)

9. University of Chicago

11. Dartmouth College(NH)

12. Washington University in St. Louis

12. Cornell University(NY)

14. Brown University(RI)

14. Northwestern University(IL)

14. Johns Hopkins University(MD)

Assuming you are a MIDDLE DISTANCE guy I would take a very good look at Columbia or Stanford. Most of the other top 15 academic schools are either not D1, not top programs or they concentrate on XC and 5k-10k races. Based on your pr's I would say you are a miler. I think the academic difference between any of these schools is minimal and you would be part of an elite student body anywhere. I think you should really take a good look at the coaching and find a coach that fits you well.

Realistic wrote:

Assuming you are a MIDDLE DISTANCE guy I would take a very good look at Columbia or Stanford. Most of the other top 15 academic schools are either not D1, not top programs or they concentrate on XC and 5k-10k races. Based on your pr's I would say you are a miler. I think the academic difference between any of these schools is minimal and you would be part of an elite student body anywhere. I think you should really take a good look at the coaching and find a coach that fits you well.

assuming this kid improves even a little bit, he will be somewhere between 404 and 409 next year for the mile. He would be a fool to throw away that talent by going to any school other than a top rated DISTANCE RUNNING SCHOOL, with a good coach and other top runners to feed off of. Columbia? Nooooo. Princeton? Noooooo. Stanford? Yes, Oregon? Yes. Colorado? Yes. Running comes FIRST when you have this kind of talent.

What about UCLA?

Cal Poly is a great choice too if you're a longer distance type.

ucla and usc are the greatest t&f schools in history. usc has been the main host for two olympic games. so you'd better be a state or natl h.s. champ or have a top 10 mark.

Cal (big) or Cornell (small) or Oklahoma (good running program no distractions but not so good academically).

If running is a priority you have one good shot in college. Academically there is always grad school if you don't cut as a runner.

At Oregon or Stanford 4:12 milers are a dime a dozen. They will eat you and spit you out. Talk to some recent alumi! At least at Stanford academics are great but expensive. You can't that about Oregon.

not this place wrote:

Off the Grid wrote:

Haverford - if the fit is right for you.

.

Don't mean to knock this school, but don't think it would be a good fit for a national level talent.

Well...would you recommned a child make a life altering decision based on an athletic career w/ a low probability of any sort of future after college? Haverford is good for *some* people (those who are academically inclined) and they have produced 5 out of 10 top D3 1500 times. So, it has both.

If the OP "fits" into a place like HC, it meets his other criteria.

There is a reason Haverford has 1,000 students, and only 12-13k living alumini - it caters to an extremely small self-selected sample.

There are many other schools from which to choose - running should be the means to the end, rather than the end.