I'm not nitpicking, just setting the facts straight when you claimed he never did it. Just for your information, Lagat has only run two outdoor 1000's in his long career.
I'm not nitpicking, just setting the facts straight when you claimed he never did it. Just for your information, Lagat has only run two outdoor 1000's in his long career.
ventolin wrote:
i'm glad there are a few of us guys in general agreement
( & coe/hicham etc aren't broke-dicks )
But I still thought their best performances were in broke-dick mountain.
You are correct. But Lagat competed in PLENTY of 800m races.
First off, highschool relay splits are notoriously inacurate. Find any 3:30 relay team and ask them their splits; most likely it will add up to 3:25~. In highschool, I ran two open 400s (55.0X, 55.1X), and my best relay split (or so I was told), was 52.9. Granted I probably ran faster because it was a relay, but in reality my max 400 was probly 53 high, 54 low. My best 8 was 1:58. There are countless 2:00+ runners who "run 51's", yet also have 4:30 miles. Trust me, I know some 51 runners who run 2:00, and they are nowhere NEAR running 4:30 miles.
Secondly, closing speed is more indicative of aerobic ability than raw sprinting speed. I know a guy who closed a 10k in 59 seconds (running 32 mins, and his pr is 30:40), but MAYBE could run a 57 max out.
This is the problem with Western coaches. They think that guys like Webb get outkicked because they lack speed. They have plent of speed. They lack endurance. Bekele is MAYBE a sub 50 400m runner. Look at his fastest split in any race. He'll run about 25.x for his fastest final 200m. That's roughly his open 400m speed. Same for Defar and Dibaba, who can close in 27.x, and are likely 55sec girls.
They lack endurance indeed. This is what Arthur has preached for ages. Snell was running 22.3 for the 200m and the slowest
in the 800m field in Rome. Yet he smoked everyone due to his
superior endurance. George Kerr had 21.0. That's decent speed
by today's standard.
As someone alluded to earlier, there was a lot more money to be made running the 1500/mile. Also, he did dabble in other races- the 2000(three times), 3000(four times), 5000(3 times). I don't know why he didn't make a 1000m WR attempt. Perhaps he didn't like racing the shorter distances. The time Ngeny set the 1000m WR, El G was busy setting the 2000m WR. It is odd that El G never ran a competitive 800, but perhaps he just did them in practice.
I would be suprised if Bekele could run faster than low 49 to high 48. He is not a middle distance runner, he is a long distance runner and his 48/49 makes him quicker than most 5k/10k guys, but when he drops down to mile you are dealing with guys who in some cases are 46x 400m guys. Webb only has average speed for a world class miler and he has a 47x 400m to his credit.
I seriously doubt KB has 47x speed becasue would run faster 1500s and and a shot at Daniel Komen's 3k record. People love to speculate what an athlete could run in their events outside of their speciality. Athletes generally are in no hurry to test themselves moving up, but guys love to step down when they think they can compete at a shorter distance.
He supposedly ran 1:42.7 in a time trial. I believe it-he's about 4 seconds faster then Webb over the 1500m/mile so the fact that he is about 1 second faster over 800m makes sense-he just has better endurance.
Lagat is faster than Webb over 1500m. How about Lagat's 800m?
Probably at least as fast as Hicham's.
But not any more, obviously.
Very rarely are elite milers in the 46 second range for 400m. Like maybe Coe.
Very rarely are elite milers in the 46 second range for 400m. Like maybe Coe.
Interesting how the Lydiard fans insist it is all about endurance. I suppose this will never change. Snell could barely make it around the track? This is just folklore. He actually had comparable speed to our Webb, who along with Lagat runs far better than Snell over 1500m -- with less mileage. In truth, Snell's stamina was not especially astounding.
El G would have had to race Kipketer. Not only would this have resulted in defeat, it would have also been bad for business. He raced the championship events where there was most room for error and off days. Ngeny ran a smarter race to win a championship 1500. Bekele ran a dumber race to lose a championship 5000. And yes, El G going through in 2:17 likely means he was capable of near the WR for 1000m.
Though it might be entertaining to watch Bekele and Geb start from blocks, it has little bearing on the true speed assessment. Both in their prime had 4x400m speed close to Ryun's and were at least as fast in a 10x200m set as Ondieki.
I already posted, but having read more posts, I do think in general people overestimate the 400 speed of these guys. El G could certainly run 47. Whether you believe his 1:42 time trial or not, I find it hard to believe he didn't have close to the basic speed of Jim Ryun and Seb Coe, who both ran legit 46 second 400s. The more I think about it, the more likely it is Bekele cannot break 49. He is probably a 49xx guy. If he could run 48 or 47, he would be able to break 3:30 EASILY with his endurance, but he has never done so in several serious attempts at the 1500.
El G - 47-48.0
Coe - 45.5-46.5
Webb - 47.0
Bekele - 49.5
someone posted snell's splits in his ~ ?3'54wr
iirc he had a derisory 1st lap & then charged off
it looked to be in 3'50/3'51 region if he'd run it hard from the gun
also being run on dirt not synthetic, you can probably knock off 4s off that for a modern mondo ( 1s/lap )
snell time-transported to modern day with no other better training/nutrition coud probably go
~ 3'46 / 3'47
there are no stamina issues if you can run that fast ...
Killa... yeah,yeah he be 49 no more, more of 49 some more,
plus he be sub 13, somwhere between, 13 subs I mean, yeah yeah.
silly old fossil wrote:
It never ceases to amaze me the Dyestat wankers who will list a 51 flat 400, 49 point relay leg.....but can only manage a 1:55 or 1:57 800. Those numbers don't add up.
If you can run a 51 flat 400, you can run a 1:53 flat 800....no question.
I must be just the guy you're talking about. 50.9x FAT in the open 400, 1:55.5x FAT in the open 800.
If you think my numbers don't add up, you must not understand that there are a lot of fast kids out there with no endurance whatsoever. I only broke 17 minutes for 5k once in high school. 6 minute mile pace was a challenge - 4 mile tempos in 24 minutes were hard freaking workouts. 5 miles in 30 minutes probably would have been a race effort.
You're right about the inaccuracies of hand timing though. The open race where I went 50.9x, my buddy in the stands had me at 49.x on his stopwatch. Goes to show how inaccurate he was.
You may think I'm lying, but why the hell would I? This board is anonymous. 51 flat speed + 17 minute 5k speed really does equal 1:55-1:57, not 1:53. I think the 1:53 guys are running 49.point in high school. 1:50-1:52 is probably the domain of 48.point. Any faster than that and the kid is probably a 400 specialist.
El G > Coe
any distance
400m wrote:
for all of you 4:20 milers out there, thats a 65 second quarter average... now imagine running one... of course you can run at least 8 seconds faster. EL G runs 55s in his 2000m world record!
Yes but none of us 4:20 milers have even close to the amazing aerobic strength of Bekele.