Why doesn't Kelsall ask the same question about US Sprinters?
Is it because he doesn't care about sprinting? Or is it because he doesn't see the hypocrisy?
I can't speak for Chris definitively but based on several discussions and exchanges over the years I cannot say he doesn’t care about sprinting but he does not care about it nearly as much as he cares about distance running. Or maybe he doesn't care about sprinting at all.
But look at the massive number of doping threads here. How many of them deal with doped sprinters wherever they're from?
I care about sprinting and distance running. However I know why doping is common in sprinting and how they avoid testing positive. So I see Chris Kelsall's position as hypocritical.
But then I also think that drug testing is corrupt.
Imagine you hire a house cleaner. One day when s/he is coming you leave a fifty dollar bill in plain sight and when you get home it's gone. You have no proof the cleaner took it but no one would say you don't have grounds to fire her. Innocent until proven guilty is a legal concept which protects that house cleaner from prosecution if her employer is wrong about what happened to that cash.
WADA could sanction Rosa if it wanted to. WADA could create a general policy of sanctioning agents who have X number of athletes caught doping in Y amount of time. And doing this would not only protect non Kenyans from doping Kenyans. It would also protect non doping Kenyans from doping ones
But doing what it does, well really what it doesn't do, waiting for some sort of irrefutable evidence of wrong doing in reality means the current situation can never change.
Your response to "fan fiction" is to post something starting with "imagine"? At some point, WADA would need something stronger than imagination to ban Rosa.
I can't speak for Chris definitively but based on several discussions and exchanges over the years I cannot say he doesn’t care about sprinting but he does not care about it nearly as much as he cares about distance running. Or maybe he doesn't care about sprinting at all.
But look at the massive number of doping threads here. How many of them deal with doped sprinters wherever they're from?
I care about sprinting and distance running. However I know why doping is common in sprinting and how they avoid testing positive. So I see Chris Kelsall's position as hypocritical.
But then I also think that drug testing is corrupt.
You're entitled to your opinion but I don't see why someone who wants to talk about one doped population is hypocritical if he doesn't talk about another doped population. And of course drug testing is corrupt.
Rosa is a mobster. No athlete he represents is ever coming out against him for fear of retribution.
The only evidence WADA collects is failed/non-compliance with drug testing. Given the agent isn't taking drugs, how is that gonna be effective?
Surely once you've had a dozen of your athletes popped - you're at the very least guilty of gross negligence.
Why do I need to get that evidence? That's a job for the AIU or ADAK.
But in the WADA Code, there is a clause that give athletes a reduced sentence for cooperation. Mathew Kisorio was begging to talk to anyone who would listen, even being interviewed by the German investigative journalist Hajo Seppelt.
Rosa is a mobster? WADA can't sanction anyone based on fan fiction. I can be persuaded with real substantial evidence, but not with fallacies and fan fiction.
I wasn't asking you to do it specifically. Do you not understand the concept of a rhetorical question?
Also, there are plenty of reputable sources that'll tell you this is how Rosa operates. Selva Yoga - a marathon coach who's spent plenty of time in Kenya - is one such source.
Your response to "fan fiction" is to post something starting with "imagine"? At some point, WADA would need something stronger than imagination to ban Rosa.
Why?
At the very least, because WADA says the standard to meet is "comfortable satisfaction" -- something between "more probable than not" and "beyond reasonable doubt".
I wasn't asking you to do it specifically. Do you not understand the concept of a rhetorical question?
Also, there are plenty of reputable sources that'll tell you this is how Rosa operates. Selva Yoga - a marathon coach who's spent plenty of time in Kenya - is one such source.
Does Selva Yoga say Rosa is involved with athlete doping? Because that would be something.
I answered your question anyway: incentive athletes to cooperate with investigations. I've heard Lance Armstrong was a mobster too -- yet there were about two dozen witnesses who stepped forward to provide testimony against him.
After 11 years, all this talk about Rosa is still empty talk. Again, compare that to 11 years of Lance Armstrong.
I wasn't asking you to do it specifically. Do you not understand the concept of a rhetorical question?
Also, there are plenty of reputable sources that'll tell you this is how Rosa operates. Selva Yoga - a marathon coach who's spent plenty of time in Kenya - is one such source.
Does Selva Yoga say Rosa is involved with athlete doping? Because that would be something.
I answered your question anyway: incentive athletes to cooperate with investigations. I've heard Lance Armstrong was a mobster too -- yet there were about two dozen witnesses who stepped forward to provide testimony against him.
After 11 years, all this talk about Rosa is still empty talk. Again, compare that to 11 years of Lance Armstrong.
Plus, which agent had over 15 banned sprinters, and was prosecuted on suspicion of doping his athletes? Rosa seems to be unique (or so I hope).
Rosa was not prosecuted. The case was withdrawn before it went to trial, with the prosecution saying it needed further investigation.
“Not prosecuted”. Surprised by that? One should not be.
when have Agents, Coaches, Officials been prosecuted? Not very often. Yet somehow these many many athletes primarily from Africa seem to somehow know how to get supplied and applied.
Does Selva Yoga say Rosa is involved with athlete doping? Because that would be something.
I answered your question anyway: incentive athletes to cooperate with investigations. I've heard Lance Armstrong was a mobster too -- yet there were about two dozen witnesses who stepped forward to provide testimony against him.
After 11 years, all this talk about Rosa is still empty talk. Again, compare that to 11 years of Lance Armstrong.
Deflection.
How?
I was talking about Rosa's alleged complicity as expressed by Kelsall as far back 2015. He doesn't say Rosa was a mobster, as verified by reputable sources like Selva Yoga.
If anything, that was a deflection, as well as a confirmation that there is no substantial evidence.
Rosa was not prosecuted. The case was withdrawn before it went to trial, with the prosecution saying it needed further investigation.
“Not prosecuted”. Surprised by that? One should not be.
when have Agents, Coaches, Officials been prosecuted? Not very often. Yet somehow these many many athletes primarily from Africa seem to somehow know how to get supplied and applied.
Ferrari was prosecuted. As was Bruyneel, Drs. Garcia del Moral and Celaya, and Jose "Pepe" Marti. John Drummond. Victor Conte. Salazar. Doc. Brown. It happens when there is evidence. Athletics Integrity Unit currently lists 11 Athlete Support Personnel banned.
I'm not surprised, and agree that one should not be. What else would you expect when the prosecution can't make a case based on evidence? Criminal courts are not gossip forums, tabloid newspapers, or soap operas. The prosecution had already delayed the trial date, asking for more time to investigate, and eventually dropped the charges, again saying they needed more time to investigate and might come back later if new evidence was discovered.
Regarding how they are supplied and applied, in 2017 WADA and the AIU worked with ADAK and discovered that the role of local doctors, hospitals, and chemists was "highly relevant to the accessibility of Prohibited Substances".
Another point raised in that report was the role of lack of awareness and anti-doping education among athletes as well as local doctors/chemists, of the athletes' obligations during routine medical treatments.
Although an earlier report partly blamed foreign agents and coaches, this second report doesn't mention them, but does lament that "The benefits of the Substantial Assistance provisions of the Code are vastly underutilized by doping Kenyan athletes."
Rosa was not prosecuted. The case was withdrawn before it went to trial, with the prosecution saying it needed further investigation.
Fine... which agent had over 15 banned sprinters, and was investigated by the justice system for months?
I bet the answer for that question is also: no one.
I don't know about agents, but how many sprinters did John Drummond coach? How many clients did Victor Conte have?
Seems like the more important question is how many athletes would it take to turn a fallacy into substantial evidence? I bet the answer is that "over 15" is still a fallacy, wanting for substantial evidence.
The WADA Code spells out the Roles and Responsibilities of Athlete Support Personnel. Nothing says it is a violation of any anti-doping rules to be an agent. There needs to be something else substantial.
I care about sprinting and distance running. However I know why doping is common in sprinting and how they avoid testing positive. So I see Chris Kelsall's position as hypocritical.
But then I also think that drug testing is corrupt.
You're entitled to your opinion but I don't see why someone who wants to talk about one doped population is hypocritical if he doesn't talk about another doped population. And of course drug testing is corrupt.
It's hypocritical because he's going after an easy target. His proposed solution is naïve at best.
At the very least, because WADA says the standard to meet is "comfortable satisfaction" -- something between "more probable than not" and "beyond reasonable doubt".
That's subjective but given the number of Rosa's athletes who have been popped I believe that standard has been exceeded
You're entitled to your opinion but I don't see why someone who wants to talk about one doped population is hypocritical if he doesn't talk about another doped population. And of course drug testing is corrupt.
It's hypocritical because he's going after an easy target. His proposed solution is naïve at best.
Why is going after an easy target hypocritical? Are you saying that sprinters are a harder target?
At the very least, because WADA says the standard to meet is "comfortable satisfaction" -- something between "more probable than not" and "beyond reasonable doubt".
That's subjective but given the number of Rosa's athletes who have been popped I believe that standard has been exceeded
I'm sure you believe that.
But "guilt by association", even many associations, remains a classic fallacy that at best meets the lowest standard of "reasonable suspicion".
That's subjective but given the number of Rosa's athletes who have been popped I believe that standard has been exceeded
I'm sure you believe that.
But "guilt by association", even many associations, remains a classic fallacy that at best meets the lowest standard of "reasonable suspicion".
There is more than just association going on here. There is a working relationship and I know that agents in Kenya routinely give their athletes "supplements."
“Not prosecuted”. Surprised by that? One should not be.
when have Agents, Coaches, Officials been prosecuted? Not very often. Yet somehow these many many athletes primarily from Africa seem to somehow know how to get supplied and applied.
Ferrari was prosecuted. As was Bruyneel, Drs. Garcia del Moral and Celaya, and Jose "Pepe" Marti. John Drummond. Victor Conte. Salazar. Doc. Brown. It happens when there is evidence. Athletics Integrity Unit currently lists 11 Athlete Support Personnel banned.
I'm not surprised, and agree that one should not be. What else would you expect when the prosecution can't make a case based on evidence? Criminal courts are not gossip forums, tabloid newspapers, or soap operas. The prosecution had already delayed the trial date, asking for more time to investigate, and eventually dropped the charges, again saying they needed more time to investigate and might come back later if new evidence was discovered.
Regarding how they are supplied and applied, in 2017 WADA and the AIU worked with ADAK and discovered that the role of local doctors, hospitals, and chemists was "highly relevant to the accessibility of Prohibited Substances".
Another point raised in that report was the role of lack of awareness and anti-doping education among athletes as well as local doctors/chemists, of the athletes' obligations during routine medical treatments.
Although an earlier report partly blamed foreign agents and coaches, this second report doesn't mention them, but does lament that "The benefits of the Substantial Assistance provisions of the Code are vastly underutilized by doping Kenyan athletes."
This thread is about African runners being coached and represented by people who have a litany of athletes who have been banned. Surprisingly, the banned athletes under said coaches/agents have never come forward about anyone or anything.
The first group of people Bruyneel, Garcia del Moral, Celaya, Marti are all associated with cycling and the famous Lance Armstrong among many other clients. Those dirtbags were prosecuted in western countries some more rule of law abiding (USA, Switzerland) than others (Italy). You throw those names out there to deflect from African runners and the doping apparatus primarily in Kenya, Ethiopia and Uganda. Doping in Cycling, and Lance Armstrongs’ involvement is well know but is not what this thread is about - thus you deflect constantly in posts that imply Kenyan athletes rampant doping and the people/institutions and apparatus.
Drummond - US sprinter. Prosecuted in the US for taking steroids and banned for 8 years.
Victor Conti - US distributor of steroids. Prosecuted and jailed 5years in the US.
Salazar - US runner and coach. Prosecuted in the US and banned 4 years.
Dr Brown - US endocrinologist. Prosecuted in the US for trafficking and administering banned substances to athletes and banned 4 years.
All the people that you mention were prosecuted in Western Countries that operate under rule of law. You failed to mention one African coach, agent etc.
Deflection. And it is my opinion you do this purposely to put doubt in peoples minds about the very real and widespread problems surrounding doping African runners (predominantly Kenyan runners).