Hocker absolutely can, but it'd be really sad if he never puts up a WR or close to WR time in an outdoor distance. He also doesn't really win with regularity. I'd like to see him do these two things before doing the comparison game with Jakob who has such an extensive career already.
Well with respect to rivalry which does and will impact legacy, that wasn't the question. The question was "is it Kerr or Hocker" So you answered that the same way I did in saying Hocker can, because on the flipside I don't see that with 28 year old Josh Kerr anymore.
With respect to Hocker winning races, if I'm honest, all that really matters are the world championships and Olympics and especially now in the era of wavelight in every DL race (including the DL final) which has unfairly tilted the field towards timetrial specialists and not racing specialists - something which the great race tacticians don't have reciprocally. So Jakobs 95% winning percentage in Euro/DL one day meets is something nice, but something I would take with a grain of salt.
Hocker won't break any outdoor WR's. He's not built to run under 3.26.00, 3.43.13, 7.17.55 or 12.35.36. Jakob is (not the 1500m but it would seem like the mile and 5000m are possible), but the big unknown now is have the years and years of high volume threshold stacking and steps on a track/treadmill (now in stupid high-stack, soft foam shoes that are wrecking him) finally caught up with him. Jakobs records are all incredible performances (2000, 3000, 2mile) but none of those distances are as prestigious or meaningful as the 1500m, mile or 5000m and I really think he needs to get at least one of these records to counter the emergence of Hocker and his racing ability and instincts.
So as much as Jakob fan-boys don't want to hear this, there is a possibility that his window for breaking records (which was closing anyway just based on what we have seen historically for the last 40+ years of elite runners) might actually be already closed and his record breaking days are over. He might have 2026 depending on how well he's recovered mentally and physically, he might simply not.
Now let's think about Beijing in 2027. Hocker a year younger than Jakob at 26, Jakob an old 27 - it's not inconceivable that Hocker could win the 15-5k double and do the one thing Jakob never could at this level. I mean he could have done it this year if he hadn't run like a putz in the semi-final and mastered his own demise there. There is nobody else on the planet that can do this. I certainly don't see any other potential 1500m candidate moving up in 24 months time to be able to do both. Laros? I doubt it. Nader, Koech, Kessler, Ethan Strand? No. So Hocker could do a few things Jakob never could - win a world 1500m title and win that 15-5 major championships double which is so legendarily hard to do.
I don't know man - if that went down, I would struggle to definitively put Jakob ahead of Cole in this decade, irrespective of the DL wins/WR's at non-traditional distances/and his medals. This isn't even entertaining what Hocker could do at a home Olympics in 2028.
Back to the original question - the answer isn't even close.
I wasn’t trying to refute your post, I’d agree with you if he won a double in both Beijing and in LA. It’s just that from my POV it would suck if he didn’t do the things I said, it’s just a fanboy thing, I’ll admit, because I like putting more stock into WRs and wins on the DL or dominating wins in general. I hope Hocker sets a huge time over two miles in Millrose and destroys Fisher. I hope he runs a super fast Mile at Pre in the 3:43-3:44 range. I hope he goes to Europe and runs a 1500/5000 leading from start to finish in a quick time (3:27 or a 12:40). That’d really challenge Jakob’s legacy if you ask me, and I think Hocker can do it. Just not sure where his priorities are. It’s sort of like comparing Mo Farah to Bekele. He successfully completed 4 straight 5-10k doubles while Bekele only did two. But does that really matter that much? Yes, I know that Jakob doesn’t hold atleast one of those Olympic distance WRs but likewise, Farah was also pretty dominant throughout the season as well when Hocker just isn’t.
Hocker absolutely can, but it'd be really sad if he never puts up a WR or close to WR time in an outdoor distance. He also doesn't really win with regularity. I'd like to see him do these two things before doing the comparison game with Jakob who has such an extensive career already.
Well with respect to rivalry which does and will impact legacy, that wasn't the question. The question was "is it Kerr or Hocker" So you answered that the same way I did in saying Hocker can, because on the flipside I don't see that with 28 year old Josh Kerr anymore.
With respect to Hocker winning races, if I'm honest, all that really matters are the world championships and Olympics and especially now in the era of wavelight in every DL race (including the DL final) which has unfairly tilted the field towards timetrial specialists and not racing specialists - something which the great race tacticians don't have reciprocally. So Jakobs 95% winning percentage in Euro/DL one day meets is something nice, but something I would take with a grain of salt.
Hocker won't break any outdoor WR's. He's not built to run under 3.26.00, 3.43.13, 7.17.55 or 12.35.36. Jakob is (not the 1500m but it would seem like the mile and 5000m are possible), but the big unknown now is have the years and years of high volume threshold stacking and steps on a track/treadmill (now in stupid high-stack, soft foam shoes that are wrecking him) finally caught up with him. Jakobs records are all incredible performances (2000, 3000, 2mile) but none of those distances are as prestigious or meaningful as the 1500m, mile or 5000m and I really think he needs to get at least one of these records to counter the emergence of Hocker and his racing ability and instincts.
So as much as Jakob fan-boys don't want to hear this, there is a possibility that his window for breaking records (which was closing anyway just based on what we have seen historically for the last 40+ years of elite runners) might actually be already closed and his record breaking days are over. He might have 2026 depending on how well he's recovered mentally and physically, he might simply not.
Now let's think about Beijing in 2027. Hocker a year younger than Jakob at 26, Jakob an old 27 - it's not inconceivable that Hocker could win the 15-5k double and do the one thing Jakob never could at this level. I mean he could have done it this year if he hadn't run like a putz in the semi-final and mastered his own demise there. There is nobody else on the planet that can do this. I certainly don't see any other potential 1500m candidate moving up in 24 months time to be able to do both. Laros? I doubt it. Nader, Koech, Kessler, Ethan Strand? No. So Hocker could do a few things Jakob never could - win a world 1500m title and win that 15-5 major championships double which is so legendarily hard to do.
I don't know man - if that went down, I would struggle to definitively put Jakob ahead of Cole in this decade, irrespective of the DL wins/WR's at non-traditional distances/and his medals. This isn't even entertaining what Hocker could do at a home Olympics in 2028.
Back to the original question - the answer isn't even close.
First I read "great runners" fail in DL and win a single championship race per year, the logic "at home".
Ask someone like Wanyonyi or Usain Bolt (or other names you hate in this forum and flood with accusations) and they will tell you how to win at any time. Wanyonyi did even a demonstration from the start of the gun.
As for this forum, looks like the Eldorado of "clean era" (powered by Nordic supremacy theme) is ending and the harsh reality is coming.
First I read "great runners" fail in DL and win a single championship race per year, the logic "at home".
I don't quite understand what you are saying here but I'll do my best to understand.
First of all Cole Hocker is hardly a DL "failure" - what's the basis for that? Not winning every start? He focusses his seasons on the major events and being at his best for those. Do you think he cares that he finished 7th in the Stockholm 5000m this season sitting at home with a world 5000m gold medal? I can promise you he doesn't.
And to answer a part of your question, is winning a world title (ie. a single championship race) bigger than winning every DL meet of the season and not winning the world title? Yes.
There is not a single athlete on the planet that would rather win 6 DL meets and the DL final vs winning a world championship - not only from historical status and importance, but also financially because being the world champion will have a contract kicker that far exceeds the prize money from all those DL meets including the final and has a massive impact on appearance fees moving forwards.
I wasn’t trying to refute your post, I’d agree with you if he won a double in both Beijing and in LA. It’s just that from my POV it would suck if he didn’t do the things I said, it’s just a fanboy thing, I’ll admit, because I like putting more stock into WRs and wins on the DL or dominating wins in general. I hope Hocker sets a huge time over two miles in Millrose and destroys Fisher. I hope he runs a super fast Mile at Pre in the 3:43-3:44 range. I hope he goes to Europe and runs a 1500/5000 leading from start to finish in a quick time (3:27 or a 12:40). That’d really challenge Jakob’s legacy if you ask me, and I think Hocker can do it. Just not sure where his priorities are. It’s sort of like comparing Mo Farah to Bekele. He successfully completed 4 straight 5-10k doubles while Bekele only did two. But does that really matter that much? Yes, I know that Jakob doesn’t hold atleast one of those Olympic distance WRs but likewise, Farah was also pretty dominant throughout the season as well when Hocker just isn’t.
Interesting and good point regarding Farah v Bekele.
What I will say about that is that the only thing that really gives the nod to Bekele over Farah is the fact he broke those WR's because otherwise the reality Farah was able to do this back to back at an Olympic Games and in between those games, back to back WC's would make him greater than Bekele. Farah is a little bit underrated in the annuls of all-time greats because he never really ran amazing times (except ironically over 1500m) but his championship record over 5/10 is almost not arguable as the greatest we have ever seen. Farah basically dominated an entire decade over those distance. Across 4 world champs and 2 Olympic Games he did 4 doubles and the only thing that thing that ruined his perfection were silvers in the 10000m in 2011 and 5000m in 2017 and the combined losing margin for both those races was 0.69 seconds. Wow.
But that I think is the point here, Jakob needs to take at least one of those records from El G or Cheptegei. The 3000m is a legendary performance just as Komens was - but it's not the same as the 1500, mile or 5000m record. Will he? Let's see - total unknown right now.
This post was edited 4 minutes after it was posted.
Who does Jakob think of first that motivates him to train when he wakes up? I feel like it’s Hocker because he has won gold the last 2 championships they’ve raced each other in. It probably was Kerr in 2023/2024 but that ship has kind of sailed. Hope we see all three at world indoors.
First I read "great runners" fail in DL and win a single championship race per year, the logic "at home".
I don't quite understand what you are saying here but I'll do my best to understand.
First of all Cole Hocker is hardly a DL "failure" - what's the basis for that? Not winning every start? He focusses his seasons on the major events and being at his best for those. Do you think he cares that he finished 7th in the Stockholm 5000m this season sitting at home with a world 5000m gold medal? I can promise you he doesn't.
And to answer a part of your question, is winning a world title (ie. a single championship race) bigger than winning every DL meet of the season and not winning the world title? Yes.
There is not a single athlete on the planet that would rather win 6 DL meets and the DL final vs winning a world championship - not only from historical status and importance, but also financially because being the world champion will have a contract kicker that far exceeds the prize money from all those DL meets including the final and has a massive impact on appearance fees moving forwards.
But glad to help educate you on that one.
The way some of you guys try to demote world titles/regular season indoor world CHAMPIONSHIP dominance in comparison to Olympic titles ..while boosting major Marathon wins kills me. If you won 5-6 diamond leagues you'd keep getting diamond league appearances..
A good question is who is a more dominant runner. hocker or grant? Yared nuguse or hocker? When I say dominant I mean being the GUY to beat on the starting line. Not the guy stealing the w.
This post was edited 4 minutes after it was posted.
First I read "great runners" fail in DL and win a single championship race per year, the logic "at home".
I don't quite understand what you are saying here but I'll do my best to understand.
First of all Cole Hocker is hardly a DL "failure" - what's the basis for that? Not winning every start? He focusses his seasons on the major events and being at his best for those. Do you think he cares that he finished 7th in the Stockholm 5000m this season sitting at home with a world 5000m gold medal? I can promise you he doesn't.
And to answer a part of your question, is winning a world title (ie. a single championship race) bigger than winning every DL meet of the season and not winning the world title? Yes.
There is not a single athlete on the planet that would rather win 6 DL meets and the DL final vs winning a world championship - not only from historical status and importance, but also financially because being the world champion will have a contract kicker that far exceeds the prize money from all those DL meets including the final and has a massive impact on appearance fees moving forwards.
But glad to help educate you on that one.
I was listening to a NBA player compare the NFL to the NBA. He said NFL players care more about every snap that's why the product was better. Me watching that hating football and loving basketball can't even refute any part of that. Same goes for our sport. Other races have to matter. I hate following college xc cause they race like 2 times a season. At least in track they run hard more often.
I was listening to a NBA player compare the NFL to the NBA. He said NFL players care more about every snap that's why the product was better. Me watching that hating football and loving basketball can't even refute any part of that. Same goes for our sport. Other races have to matter. I hate following college xc cause they race like 2 times a season. At least in track they run hard more often.
Yeah theres a little bit of a difference at play here. Professional track and field contracts and the size/lucrativeness of these contracts are solely dictated by what happens at the major championships. And I know, because I've seen plenty of these contracts and the details of them - have you?
NBA and NFL contracts are dictated by the size of the TV deal that their leagues front offices negotiate, which is directly related to said "product" (and even then that's debatable because the NBA "product" has been garbage the last 4-5 seasons and yet they just signed an 11 year 76 billion dollar deal).
So I'm sorry that Cole Hocker disappoints you for not running more when you would like him to - he does what is best for him (like what, 99.9% of Americans do for themselves too - at a guess including yourself?), and right now that seems to be working just fine.
The guy he should be seeing as his rival and most afraid of is Hocker and it's not even close.
1) Josh Kerr is 28 and honestly, his window has/is closing quickly and right now is still only slightly ajar at best. I really struggle to see him being a factor in 2028 and even in 2027 which seems really far off as of today.
2) This is the big one. Jakobs best days in the 1500m are done - especially when it comes to major championships. But the 5000m is still "his" event, especially given his dominance at the majors (obviously discounting Tokyo where he gets a pass because of his injury issues). But guess who is really good at that event too? It's not Josh Kerr. Cole Hocker could have done what only Lagat and El G have done since the turn of the century had not stupidly got himself DQ'd in the Tokyo semis. It's also something Jakob has never done. But if Hocker goes to Beijing and rolls over Jakob in the 5000m to match his back-to-back WC golds and sets himself up to win in LA (possibly chasing the El G double), then this really changes the narrative on who the greatest MD runner of the 2020's would be.
Josh Kerr right now can't impact Jakob's legacy as the best of his era. Cole Hocker absolutely can. It's Hocker.
In response to your points:
1) I think Wightman and Habz, and even Cheriuyot have shown in 2025 that we can probably reassess the impact of age. If Kerr's calf didn't blow out (he actually made the final unlike Hocker), we might be talking about him as the World Champ instead of Nader. Kerr also dominated Hocker on the circuit, such as it was (GST).
2) If Hocker made the 1500m final, there is no guarantee he wouldn't have pulled out another brain fart strategy. I don't think he was a lock had he made the final. Also, there are a lot of things that have to go Hocker's way to achieve the scenario you've described up until 2028. Whereas Jakob's legacy is already largely cemented, especially in terms of overall medals, wins and times. Hocker better start winning races to catch up.
The guy he should be seeing as his rival and most afraid of is Hocker and it's not even close.
1) Josh Kerr is 28 and honestly, his window has/is closing quickly and right now is still only slightly ajar at best. I really struggle to see him being a factor in 2028 and even in 2027 which seems really far off as of today.
2) This is the big one. Jakobs best days in the 1500m are done - especially when it comes to major championships. But the 5000m is still "his" event, especially given his dominance at the majors (obviously discounting Tokyo where he gets a pass because of his injury issues). But guess who is really good at that event too? It's not Josh Kerr. Cole Hocker could have done what only Lagat and El G have done since the turn of the century had not stupidly got himself DQ'd in the Tokyo semis. It's also something Jakob has never done. But if Hocker goes to Beijing and rolls over Jakob in the 5000m to match his back-to-back WC golds and sets himself up to win in LA (possibly chasing the El G double), then this really changes the narrative on who the greatest MD runner of the 2020's would be.
Josh Kerr right now can't impact Jakob's legacy as the best of his era. Cole Hocker absolutely can. It's Hocker.
In response to your points:
1) I think Wightman and Habz, and even Cheriuyot have shown in 2025 that we can probably reassess the impact of age. If Kerr's calf didn't blow out (he actually made the final unlike Hocker), we might be talking about him as the World Champ instead of Nader. Kerr also dominated Hocker on the circuit, such as it was (GST).
2) If Hocker made the 1500m final, there is no guarantee he wouldn't have pulled out another brain fart strategy. I don't think he was a lock had he made the final. Also, there are a lot of things that have to go Hocker's way to achieve the scenario you've described up until 2028. Whereas Jakob's legacy is already largely cemented, especially in terms of overall medals, wins and times. Hocker better start winning races to catch up.
I meant to add that Jakob will continue to add to his haul during the next 1-2 years, so even if Hocker has more success, Jakob will still be ahead overall.
I was listening to a NBA player compare the NFL to the NBA. He said NFL players care more about every snap that's why the product was better. Me watching that hating football and loving basketball can't even refute any part of that. Same goes for our sport. Other races have to matter. I hate following college xc cause they race like 2 times a season. At least in track they run hard more often.
Yeah theres a little bit of a difference at play here. Professional track and field contracts and the size/lucrativeness of these contracts are solely dictated by what happens at the major championships. And I know, because I've seen plenty of these contracts and the details of them - have you?
NBA and NFL contracts are dictated by the size of the TV deal that their leagues front offices negotiate, which is directly related to said "product" (and even then that's debatable because the NBA "product" has been garbage the last 4-5 seasons and yet they just signed an 11 year 76 billion dollar deal).
So I'm sorry that Cole Hocker disappoints you for not running more when you would like him to - he does what is best for him (like what, 99.9% of Americans do for themselves too - at a guess including yourself?), and right now that seems to be working just fine.
Hey now. I still like the NBA as it is lol I was just saying I can see the difference in effort.
I'm literally related to an ex pro. I know a little bit about the business of the sport too. I'm speaking as a fan of the sport not an agent. Hard to root for a guy I know is going to lose majority of the time even harder to appreciate the win if I then know he wasn't trying to win anything else prior. Why even give him a spot in the next pre classic, diamond leagues, Millrose etc. With Jakob, yared and even kerr. We know they will go for it. Then he says confident lines like he's the best miler in America but sits on everyone in the trials. The whole US 1500m field race prepped for Yared Nuguse not Cole hocker last US champs lol. I have valid reasoning.
You want to talk business then explain why we can't have a track league in america. The land of entertainment and sports. I'd bet it has 99% to do with us not appreciating the entirety of our sport and only highlighting the one race every 4 years.
On the last LR pod rojo said he was disappointed in Teare winning US cross then not going 😂
Who does Jakob think of first that motivates him to train when he wakes up? I feel like it’s Hocker because he has won gold the last 2 championships they’ve raced each other in. It probably was Kerr in 2023/2024 but that ship has kind of sailed. Hope we see all three at world indoors.
I think motivates himself with goal of setting WRs and lets the championships take care of themselves.
Translation: so [(1)] he can't get championship distance outdoor world records and [(2)] now loses in global outdoor championship finals.
You've not proven your first claim, that (1) "he can't get championship distance outdoor world records." Certainly indoors in 2025, less than one year ago, he got the 1,500m world record, en route to the indoor world record in the mile. Neat trick.
And as for your second claim, that he (2) "now loses in global outdoor championship finals," observe that Jakob Ingebrigtsen won a global championship in 2021 (Olympic 1500m), in 2022 (WC 5,000m), in 2023m (WC 5,000), and 2024 (WC 5,000m). So from 2021 - 2025, he won a global championship in 4 of 5 years. One year, 2025, is a datum, not a trend line. Did any other middle-distance or long-distance runner, male or female, achieve that string of global championship victories?
Who does Jakob think of first that motivates him to train when he wakes up? I feel like it’s Hocker because he has won gold the last 2 championships they’ve raced each other in. It probably was Kerr in 2023/2024 but that ship has kind of sailed. Hope we see all three at world indoors.
Jakob's rival? Armstronglivs.
Things aren't looking good if you have to measure him against a 72 year old.
Translation: so [(1)] he can't get championship distance outdoor world records and [(2)] now loses in global outdoor championship finals.
You've not proven your first claim, that (1) "he can't get championship distance outdoor world records." Certainly indoors in 2025, less than one year ago, he got the 1,500m world record, en route to the indoor world record in the mile. Neat trick.
And as for your second claim, that he (2) "now loses in global outdoor championship finals," observe that Jakob Ingebrigtsen won a global championship in 2021 (Olympic 1500m), in 2022 (WC 5,000m), in 2023m (WC 5,000), and 2024 (WC 5,000m). So from 2021 - 2025, he won a global championship in 4 of 5 years. One year, 2025, is a datum, not a trend line. Did any other middle-distance or long-distance runner, male or female, achieve that string of global championship victories?
1. An indoor record isn't an outdoor record. He still doesn't have outdoor championship distance records - the 1500/5k/10k. With his Achilles issues he never will.
2. He has lost a succession of outdoor global finals over his main distance. He lost to Wightman, Kerr, Hocker (he didn't place in Paris) and then at this year's WC he failed to make the final. 4 years in a row. Add the 5k this year. The trend is now all one way. With his Achilles injuries that will continue.
His best is now all in the past. I would very much doubt that in the future he will even be a contender.