JFC guys. Check Mantz’s Strava. He does threshold regularly. Stuff like 10-12 x 1k. Mile and two mile repeats. This thread is terrible.
yes, from post 1 we knew he wasn't doing easy runs all week like the OP suggested. He's doing plenty of intense difficult work that would injure 90% of us. He's talented, smart, and a freak of nature like his peers.
I 100% guarantee you that Mantz is doing threshold* workouts.
*Threshold is a term that 100 exercise physiologist and coaches would define 100 different ways. Most of the arguments about "threshold" are really definitional arguments about what people feel like threshold means. There isn't a objective definition of threshold and there never will be BTW. Because "threshold" doesn't objectively.
I guarantee you that Mantz is doing workouts that "thresholdy" Meaning he runs for a long time (40-70 working time with breaks) at an effort that is fast/hard but not enough to cripple his next days training session.
To me that is probably the best definition of threshold: A workout where you get a lot of on time (40-70 mins) at an effort that is hard, but not crippling to your total training load.
As good as Mantz appears to be I would line him up against top Americans from the 1980's all wearing the same shoes. He is no better in any way. Americans from the 1980's were winning marathons. Mantz, zero wins.
As good as Mantz appears to be I would line him up against top Americans from the 1980's all wearing the same shoes. He is no better in any way. Americans from the 1980's were winning marathons. Mantz, zero wins.
As much as I’m one of the first ones to call out how helpful the shoes are, I disagree with you here. I’d say they are worth two minutes +/- (4-5 seconds per mile). I don’t think Mantz is “just a 2:09 guy” sans the shoes. 2:06-high to 2:07-low maybe. But, the shoes do also facilitate recovery in training.
The genie is out of the bottle, so there’s no sense in comparing eras anymore. Just like a 3:31 1500 runner is suddenly a 3:27 guy with the new shoes that allow better recovery in hard workouts and faster racing, along with bicarb. It is what it is.
Mantz is the best of his generation. He may not have won a marathon yet, but he’s won all types of premier road races, setting records along the way, particularly in 2025. We should be championing the guy, especially as he makes himself and his training so accessible. Humble dude.
Still waiting for mantz to run a race w/o bouncy shoes. Am I asking too much? Probably so. Hard to throw a 3:00+ head start out the door.
I don't know how long you've been racing but google New Balance Tracksters. Those were my first running shoes.
The difference between those and the racing shoes of the mid- 1980's is absolutely incredible. I used to wish I had them when I started out in 7th grade.
Running shoes evolve and the latest evolution happens to be noticeably better.
What I'd like to see is an extensive study done with data going back to the first super shoes and look at runners of all abilities to see how much they improved.
At the age of 64 I improved by 30 seconds in a (relatively slow) 5K in a span of two weeks- one race without then one with.
I also notice faster paces in training runs with nylon plated.
You can't detract from the performances of current athletes for taking advantage of the technology offered.
Covered a lot of this in other posts. I’ve been running long enough. Those shoes aren’t much different than shoes they had in the 80s, 90s, and 2000s. The only difference would be weight and comfort. I know this sounds ridiculous but, as far as performance goes, it’s fact. A nylon/leather upper and a quarter inch of eva foam.
Put Khannouchi in a pair of tracksters and he runs 2:05:40. Put connor in a pair and he doesn’t break 2:08. This is the difference. The evolution from the shoes you listed above to what we had prior to 2016 is like the MLB allowing the Pedroia bat design (essentially a bat with the handle of an axe). Super shoes would be the equivalent of the MLB allowing composite bats. Even the MLB has more sense than what is currently allowed in competitive running. By the numbers, US road and track running in 2016 was hardly any more special than it had been 10 years prior. Then bouncy shoes showed up and suddenly everyone’s a superstar. Except, they really aren’t. connor’s “amazing” time barely cracks the top 80 all-time. If he had run that time 10 years ago it would have been placed him 11th. In the past 5 years, 51 runners have run faster. FIFTY ONE! In another 5 years, that time won’t even be in the top 150 times. All thanks to bouncy shoes.
We all know Khannouchi is the AR holder but we’ll keep pretending that he isn’t. Fact of the matter is, if both of them lined up on the same day in the same shoes in their prime, Khannouchi would obliterate mantz. We all know it.
As good as Mantz appears to be I would line him up against top Americans from the 1980's all wearing the same shoes. He is no better in any way. Americans from the 1980's were winning marathons. Mantz, zero wins.
As much as I’m one of the first ones to call out how helpful the shoes are, I disagree with you here. I’d say they are worth two minutes +/- (4-5 seconds per mile). I don’t think Mantz is “just a 2:09 guy” sans the shoes. 2:06-high to 2:07-low maybe. But, the shoes do also facilitate recovery in training.
The genie is out of the bottle, so there’s no sense in comparing eras anymore. Just like a 3:31 1500 runner is suddenly a 3:27 guy with the new shoes that allow better recovery in hard workouts and faster racing, along with bicarb. It is what it is.
Mantz is the best of his generation. He may not have won a marathon yet, but he’s won all types of premier road races, setting records along the way, particularly in 2025. We should be championing the guy, especially as he makes himself and his training so accessible. Humble dude.
When you say "Mantz is the best of his generation" you mean in US right? I mean if you're American I know that means "The world" but for the rest of us, he's the best in US and a long, long way behind the worlds best
This is the magic of BYU. They only give one split up front and the kids are too competitive not to compete in workouts to stick with the front. Huge burnout/injury/cut rate, but the ones who can survive the intensity become the best in the nation. Running above threshold would be the best model for everyone if the risk for injury wasn’t so high. Historically they have recruited like 10 kids a year, and only 2 stay all four years. For example, 2020 class recruited 9 including 3 top 11 NXN finishers, but now only two remain from that class and it was two of the slowest. James Corrigan was like a 9:22 guy and is now an Olympian because he has survived the intensity. Great system when you can recruit high volume. It will be interesting how they adapt as roster limits change the game.
As much as I’m one of the first ones to call out how helpful the shoes are, I disagree with you here. I’d say they are worth two minutes +/- (4-5 seconds per mile). I don’t think Mantz is “just a 2:09 guy” sans the shoes. 2:06-high to 2:07-low maybe. But, the shoes do also facilitate recovery in training.
The genie is out of the bottle, so there’s no sense in comparing eras anymore. Just like a 3:31 1500 runner is suddenly a 3:27 guy with the new shoes that allow better recovery in hard workouts and faster racing, along with bicarb. It is what it is.
Mantz is the best of his generation. He may not have won a marathon yet, but he’s won all types of premier road races, setting records along the way, particularly in 2025. We should be championing the guy, especially as he makes himself and his training so accessible. Humble dude.
When you say "Mantz is the best of his generation" you mean in US right? I mean if you're American I know that means "The world" but for the rest of us, he's the best in US and a long, long way behind the worlds best
If you go back and read the poster I was responding to, obviously I’m talking Americans since he was discussing Americans of the 1980s. That was his talking point. Obviously Mantz isn’t the best marathoner in the world🙄
Nice attempt to segue into the predictable, tired, and stale, “all you Americans are unipolar, hegemonic, cultureless, and xenophobic” schtick though. We’re all super glad and grateful that you reinforced it here!
This post was edited 42 seconds after it was posted.
because he is talented enough and recovers well enough and has a good enough coach that he really doesn't need to worry about overtraining. NSM is for old men who grew up developing overtraining tendencies that may have worked when they were in their early 20s but now that they have to work a day job and raise a family and really dont have that much time to recover, they realize that you don't need to grind yourself to a pulp in every workout - 3 months of 50-75% efforts 3 times a week are better than 2 months of 90-100% efforts followed by 1 month of injury.
As good as Mantz appears to be I would line him up against top Americans from the 1980's all wearing the same shoes. He is no better in any way. Americans from the 1980's were winning marathons. Mantz, zero wins.
Really?
Line up Americans from the 80s against Kenyans, Ethiopians and Ugandans and they have zero wins.
Marathon pace is much slower than LT, I don't think he produces super high level of lactate in his marathon. Also, I've seen him do 6 mile tempos pretty fast, he is reaching lactate threshold somewhere in that workout, same with the 1ks I saw on the Nike video of him doing. There is so many ways to train your LT. Not every workout needs to be 25x400m with 30 sec rest.
Racetraining1 wrote: As good as Mantz appears to be I would line him up against top Americans from the 1980's all wearing the same shoes. He is no better in any way. Americans from the 1980's were winning marathons. Mantz, zero wins. Really? Line up Americans from the 80s against Kenyans, Ethiopians and Ugandans and they have zero wins.
First Kenyan to hold the world marathon best was not until 2003