The K may be even more difficult than the 800 to get right. The energy system demand is brutal. When Ngeny ran is 2:11, he was approx 49.8, 1:17 flat ( still a great split for an 800, the 16 year old came through his 1:42 in 1:16 and look what happened), 1:44 & STILL found fight in the last 250. All hell break loose on the final 100- look at Coe’s two best 1000’s- the last 50m in both looked unbearable. Give the 2:11.9 its credit. Though 1:41 is the new 1:43, it’s a hard distance to maintain such a high level of speed & concentration. I really do think of the 1000 as the final distance between an extreme, endurance sprint and true middle-distance.
I agree and this is why I think the relative value of 1000m performances is way out of whack (as evidenced by how lowly the tables rank marks in the 2.12.0 ballpark). The kilo seems to fall in this zone where it is very hard for someone to have the requisite anaerobic capacity and power (traits of the 800m runner) and requisite threshold and aerobic capacity (traits of the 1500m+ runner) to go as low as what current 800/1500m performances expect it should be. Super interesting.
If Coe as a sub 1:42 and 3:30 guy only ran 2:12 busting a gut it shows the record is indeed strong. If i remember correctly Cram's 2:12 was run in pretty windy conditions, so that one deserves a shoutout. Best chance would require pacers and sacrificial victims to draft off before kicking. As an aside, however, I've always wondered if there might not be runners for who the 1000m is their best distance, not 800 or 1500. Like Johnny Gray in the 600 or Jacob in the 2-3k.
If Coe as a sub 1:42 and 3:30 guy only ran 2:12 busting a gut it shows the record is indeed strong. If i remember correctly Cram's 2:12 was run in pretty windy conditions, so that one deserves a shoutout. Best chance would require pacers and sacrificial victims to draft off before kicking. As an aside, however, I've always wondered if there might not be runners for who the 1000m is their best distance, not 800 or 1500. Like Johnny Gray in the 600 or Jacob in the 2-3k.
I think the distance is really good for a bunch of guys now actually. There’re a lot of strength-based 800 guys currently and Attaoui is probably joint 2nd or 3rd best of that type right now with Hoey/Sedjati in similar form, and Wanyonyi in his own class. Arop, Burgin, Hoppel probably lose more on the extra 200.
If Coe as a sub 1:42 and 3:30 guy only ran 2:12 busting a gut it shows the record is indeed strong. If i remember correctly Cram's 2:12 was run in pretty windy conditions, so that one deserves a shoutout. Best chance would require pacers and sacrificial victims to draft off before kicking. As an aside, however, I've always wondered if there might not be runners for who the 1000m is their best distance, not 800 or 1500. Like Johnny Gray in the 600 or Jacob in the 2-3k.
I think the distance is really good for a bunch of guys now actually. There’re a lot of strength-based 800 guys currently and Attaoui is probably joint 2nd or 3rd best of that type right now with Hoey/Sedjati in similar form, and Wanyonyi in his own class. Arop, Burgin, Hoppel probably lose more on the extra 200.
If you put the 1000 in two or three Diamond League meets next year the record probably goes down. Though the women tried that this year and it didn’t quite happen despite strong attempts from Kipyegon and Hull.
If Coe as a sub 1:42 and 3:30 guy only ran 2:12 busting a gut it shows the record is indeed strong. If i remember correctly Cram's 2:12 was run in pretty windy conditions, so that one deserves a shoutout. Best chance would require pacers and sacrificial victims to draft off before kicking. As an aside, however, I've always wondered if there might not be runners for who the 1000m is their best distance, not 800 or 1500. Like Johnny Gray in the 600 or Jacob in the 2-3k.
For sure there are such runners. You have mentioned one of them.
They once linked up for a 300s workout in Sierra Nevada when the Spanish team was based there, but they were never close training partners like Attaoui and Mills are currently.
But Katir is a convicted doper, and a fellow Spanish Moroccan like Attaoui. Spanish Moroccans (and Belgian Moroccans, French Moroccans) appear to get busted at least 10 x the rate of native European runners. George Mills probably doesn't choose his training partners.
Attaoui ran a 2:15 1000m last year in June. At the time he was a consistent 1:44/1:45 800m runner. He literally turned in to a 1:42.0/2:12 runner overnight in July last year.
This post was edited 28 seconds after it was posted.
They once linked up for a 300s workout in Sierra Nevada when the Spanish team was based there, but they were never close training partners like Attaoui and Mills are currently.
But Katir is a convicted doper, and a fellow Spanish Moroccan like Attaoui. Spanish Moroccans (and Belgian Moroccans, French Moroccans) appear to get busted at least 10 x the rate of native European runners. George Mills probably doesn't choose his training partners.
Attaoui ran a 2:15 1000m last year in June. At the time he was a consistent 1:44/1:45 800m runner. He literally turned in to a 1:42.0/2:12 runner overnight in July last year.
What's interesting about the 1000m record is how is shapes up vs other records.
2.11.96 is "only" worth 1251 points which is equivalent to...
a 1.42.5 800m
a 3.29.6 1500m
a 3.46.2 mile
and a 7.28.21 3000m
The 3000m in particular is the best comparison because like the 1000m it seems to be seldom run outdoors (and even then the 1000m seems far less run than the 3). And yet am I the only one that still thinks this record is quite strong and much better than those comparisons?
When Coe set that record (1981) he also ran the 800 WR and the mile WR in that season. When Ngeny updated (1999) it he also ran 3.43.40. So even though it's a rarely run event, it's not like the last 2 WR's were set by random guys who weren't in shape the season they set it.
And yes I think that the record should probably be closer to 2.11.0 by now, but even that mark would still pale compared to every MD record on the books. Basically the mid to high 1290's is the average ballpark for all of those records except the 3000m but that would be a 2.10.1?! That just seems way too difficult - that's a 1.43.0x and 27.0x close? Something ain't right with the tables on this one.
The part about the 3000 m does not make sense. It is run outdoors quite often.
If Coe as a sub 1:42 and 3:30 guy only ran 2:12 busting a gut it shows the record is indeed strong. If i remember correctly Cram's 2:12 was run in pretty windy conditions, so that one deserves a shoutout. Best chance would require pacers and sacrificial victims to draft off before kicking. As an aside, however, I've always wondered if there might not be runners for who the 1000m is their best distance, not 800 or 1500. Like Johnny Gray in the 600 or Jacob in the 2-3k.
Anyone who’s honest knows Ngeny’s “record” was the result of unfettered EPO use (among other PEDs). Noah was no Coe.
Wanyonyi could take it down if he wanted to. Or even Hoey, as long as he isn’t worn down by 20+ races beforehand. 🫤
Anyone who’s honest knows Ngeny’s “record” was the result of unfettered EPO use (among other PEDs). Noah was no Coe.
Wanyonyi could take it down if he wanted to. Or even Hoey, as long as he isn’t worn down by 20+ races beforehand. 🫤
Based on what…for all the insinuations about Ngeny’s alleged EPO use, the Kim McDonald stable had plenty of Westerners in and out, and yet we’ve never heard an account of drug use. Omertà 25-30 years later? Maybe, but this is a pretty airtight operation if so. I have no certainty either way.
But Katir is a convicted doper, and a fellow Spanish Moroccan like Attaoui. Spanish Moroccans (and Belgian Moroccans, French Moroccans) appear to get busted at least 10 x the rate of native European runners. George Mills probably doesn't choose his training partners.
Attaoui ran a 2:15 1000m last year in June. At the time he was a consistent 1:44/1:45 800m runner. He literally turned in to a 1:42.0/2:12 runner overnight in July last year.
Well, Attaoui at the time wouldn’t know that would he. In the context of being at an isolated national training camp, he’s just looking to get a good workout on. I wouldn’t draw much from it either way. George Mills was a founding member of OAC Europe so if he was as prejudiced against Attaoui as you, he certainly could’ve sparked a revolt. Instead they appear collegial and supportive from what we’ve seen. Attaoui hit a new level with OAC Europe, 1:44s in May and European silver were promising, but he is obviously training to peak in August. If you’re insinuating he’s doping and he’s only 22 at this time, you’re saying it really started while living and training in close quarters with OAC Europe/Mills.
Anyone who’s honest knows Ngeny’s “record” was the result of unfettered EPO use (among other PEDs). Noah was no Coe.
Wanyonyi could take it down if he wanted to. Or even Hoey, as long as he isn’t worn down by 20+ races beforehand. 🫤
Based on what…for all the insinuations about Ngeny’s alleged EPO use, the Kim McDonald stable had plenty of Westerners in and out, and yet we’ve never heard an account of drug use. Omertà 25-30 years later? Maybe, but this is a pretty airtight operation if so. I have no certainty either way.
Oh please. Put some real thought into it and stop being impressed with yourself. Next we’ll be hearing abut Noah’s “car accident”.
They once linked up for a 300s workout in Sierra Nevada when the Spanish team was based there, but they were never close training partners like Attaoui and Mills are currently.
But Katir is a convicted doper, and a fellow Spanish Moroccan like Attaoui. Spanish Moroccans (and Belgian Moroccans, French Moroccans) appear to get busted at least 10 x the rate of native European runners. George Mills probably doesn't choose his training partners.
Attaoui ran a 2:15 1000m last year in June. At the time he was a consistent 1:44/1:45 800m runner. He literally turned in to a 1:42.0/2:12 runner overnight in July last year.
I understand the big trauma caused to you by Moroccan and Kenyans. Imagine the heart of middle distances (the "mile" and 800m) taken for decades.
You are fighting an internal psycho trauma that transformed in a deep feeling of inferiority.
What's interesting about the 1000m record is how is shapes up vs other records.
2.11.96 is "only" worth 1251 points which is equivalent to...
a 1.42.5 800m
a 3.29.6 1500m
a 3.46.2 mile
and a 7.28.21 3000m
The 3000m in particular is the best comparison because like the 1000m it seems to be seldom run outdoors (and even then the 1000m seems far less run than the 3). And yet am I the only one that still thinks this record is quite strong and much better than those comparisons?
When Coe set that record (1981) he also ran the 800 WR and the mile WR in that season. When Ngeny updated (1999) it he also ran 3.43.40. So even though it's a rarely run event, it's not like the last 2 WR's were set by random guys who weren't in shape the season they set it.
And yes I think that the record should probably be closer to 2.11.0 by now, but even that mark would still pale compared to every MD record on the books. Basically the mid to high 1290's is the average ballpark for all of those records except the 3000m but that would be a 2.10.1?! That just seems way too difficult - that's a 1.43.0x and 27.0x close? Something ain't right with the tables on this one.
The part about the 3000 m does not make sense. It is run outdoors quite often.
You sure about that? And obviously we are talking elite pro level races of DL/Gold level meets at a minimum right - the races where we would expect to be seeing a WR challenged.
Do you know how many 3000m races were run in the Diamond League this season because I do. It was one - at the final in Zurich. Fifteen DL meets this year and there was one 3000m.
Last year was actually an anomaly year for the distance outdoors - it was run 4 times in the DL which is really high - but still not on the same level as the 800, 1500 etc etc. In 2023 it was run three times in the DL (Eugene, Doha and the 2 mile in Paris).
So the reality is it's not in the same category as the more mainstream events and certainly not even when compared with it's "counterpart" the 5000m. I would guess that long term the "split" of 3 and 5000m races across a full season is 2/3 to 1/3 in favor of the 5000m at best and more likely 3/4 to 1/4 in favor of the 5.
Good points. Does anyone think a sub 2:10 is possible? One would have to be a 1:41 strength based runner splitting something like 1:43.60 for 800m amd 26.3 for the last 200m. That seems almost doable splitwise, yet 2:09 seems out of this world. (Speaking of which, imagine a parallel reality where 900m is an event and breaking 2 is WC qualification standard)
And in a 600m, where someone like Quimcy Wilson or Will Sumner who can do the 400/800 entually 1:09 by splitting around 46 flat and 23 high. Again seems doable if one breaks it down like that yet it would require taking almost 3 seconds off a record that has stood for decades. Rudisha had the best shot and also has the 500m WB but only managed 1:13. 1 in windy conditions, splitting 47 rhrough 400m. Bosse drafted and was not far behind.
I really hope to see the above in the near future. Just the idea of running that fast that long just seems awesome.