You don't understand how different a 2-hour race is from a 20-hour one. You need to get your body used to taking in lots of calories, not just a few random gels. Then there's technical trails, including downhills. Very different from hilly dirt roads. Zero change Kipchoge would win on his first try.
He would need to train extensively to handle the feeding required. I do think his fitness is superior
buzzcolorado wrote:How many ultras have you ran that were longer than 10 hours? How many miles of technical downhill have you ran that is steeper than 15%. I don't think you know what you're talking about. Of course there is a very strong correlation between track/road and trail, but there are distinct skills as well. Just like being the best 100m runner doesn't make you the best long jumper or pole vaulter automatically.
And nobody said that Lebron wouldn't dominate the WNBA, you're just arguing with a strawman in your head.
How many DNF’s do you have in 50 mile races? And how many paragraphs have you written in your Instagram race reports moaning about food that didn’t sit well it your tummy or headlamps that died on you that garnered less than 5 likes because no one cares about your sport or excuses? See? Your skill level in trail running doesn’t have to validate or invalidate your opinion or speculation in this thread. Your intelligence does though.
Man, you really struggle to stay on topic, don’t you? Marathon running is a long distance running sport. Trail running is a long distance power hiking sport with some downhill running thrown in. Whatever skill is involved when it comes to navigating some rocky single track or tree root covered dirt is a learnable low level skill for someone who is already logging hundreds and hundreds of miles per month. Same with timing your lmnt electrolytes and rice krispey treats at aid stations. 100 mile races can be figured out by the top tier elite level marathon runners. They have so much more talent and athletic ability to cover whatever “trail running experience” gaps exist between them and a world record holder who averaged a 7:30 mile pace on the trails. Running is running. These guys weigh 115lbs, routinely split 4:30-4:40 mile pace, maintaining a heart rate below 170bpm at that pace for 26.2 miles. I’ve never been more sure of anything in my life that they would be absolutely cruising on any vert, on any terrain, holding a 7:30 mile pace and keeping the heart rate below 125bpm - the fueling needs drastically drop if they held that “all day pace”
you are also comparing a short sprint event to field events and hoping that comparison will impress me enough to back down from my argument? From Jesse Owens all the way up to Carl Lewis, 100m sprinters would compete and win at the long jump. Less than a year ago, Mondo(pole vaulter) beat Warholm(sprint hurdler) in a 100m race and ran it a lot faster than the women’s world record. Going back to staying on topic, elite level distance runners can transfer their athletic prowess for other long distance running events outside of their specified skill set.
Hills are Kipchoge's limit. Boston proved it. Paris was the final word.
He's limited.
This is a reductive take. Do you say the same thing regarding the DNF’s attached to Jornet/Walmsley/Roche?
Boston - wasn’t the hills. During the race the announcers were pointing to a lower leg issue because his form and cadence was clearly off, Kipchoge confirmed this after the race. Probably played a factor into him missing a bottle grab around the same time.
Paris - not the hills. Withdrew due to a back injury. He and his family had also spent the previous 6 months receiving death threats constantly. Add on the pressure of becoming the first ever 3 time Olympic marathon champion at the age of 39.
It’s a little strange how deeply you trail guys cling to the belief that the current top trail runners are a special breed and the sport is only for a select few of a weirdos. “Fueling” and “elevation gain” are your only fallback excuses when someone hypothetically poses whether some of history’s best distance runners can rival today’s ultra trail runners.
everything that ultra has learned regarding fueling has been taken from the Tour de France and marathon runners. Kenyans are training at altitude year round, running 40-50km’s a day, doing strength and plyometrics 3 times per week. They are hammering their quads, calves, and bodies up and down the mountain hills in Kenya. Thousands of them are dedicating their lives to training in the hopes of a better life and chasing the carrot of life changing money. It is always between the Kenyans and the Ethiopians as to who dominates at the world cross country championships. The same guys who crush it in cross country are also running well on the track and the roads. Running is running.
If some major brand(Nike, adidas) ever decides to change that money carrot to the trails of UTMB, Western States, you granola eating 2 liter coca cola drinking gate keeping weirdos are cooked
Incentives are pretty much there these days. With prize money plus bonuses from sponsors I wouldn’t be surprised if the winner of utmb could clear 50 to 100k euros (25k prize money, shoe company match, plus extra bonuses from nutrition company, eyewear, watch, poles, supplement brands etc) and these folks aren’t winning a marathon major so that’s a good pay day.
Incentives are pretty much there these days. With prize money plus bonuses from sponsors I wouldn’t be surprised if the winner of utmb could clear 50 to 100k euros (25k prize money, shoe company match, plus extra bonuses from nutrition company, eyewear, watch, poles, supplement brands etc) and these folks aren’t winning a marathon major so that’s a good pay day.
Again, we’re talking WNBA money vs NBA money. Another thread on letsrun has people speculating if Nike just gave a 16 year old kid $1 million a year for coming second in an 800m qualifying race. In 2018 Nike gave Galen Rupp over $700k USD/year for never winning a marathon. That’s when their flagship shoe cost $200 and they weren’t selling a lot. And people weren’t wearing them because of Rupp, they were wearing them because of Kipchoge.
UTMB is the pinnacle event for ultra running and you’re telling me it might be worth €50k-€100k including the prize money and potential sponsorship deals? Again, if a big brand ever decides to park their brinks truck on top of the alps and the rockies in, trail running is going to get a lot of new faces and they will be finishing far ahead of today’s familiar ones.
Incentives are pretty much there these days. With prize money plus bonuses from sponsors I wouldn’t be surprised if the winner of utmb could clear 50 to 100k euros (25k prize money, shoe company match, plus extra bonuses from nutrition company, eyewear, watch, poles, supplement brands etc) and these folks aren’t winning a marathon major so that’s a good pay day.
Again, we’re talking WNBA money vs NBA money. Another thread on letsrun has people speculating if Nike just gave a 16 year old kid $1 million a year for coming second in an 800m qualifying race. In 2018 Nike gave Galen Rupp over $700k USD/year for never winning a marathon. That’s when their flagship shoe cost $200 and they weren’t selling a lot. And people weren’t wearing them because of Rupp, they were wearing them because of Kipchoge.
UTMB is the pinnacle event for ultra running and you’re telling me it might be worth €50k-€100k including the prize money and potential sponsorship deals? Again, if a big brand ever decides to park their brinks truck on top of the alps and the rockies in, trail running is going to get a lot of new faces and they will be finishing far ahead of today’s familiar ones.
Rupp and Lutkenhaus got that money because they're American. You really think that none of those thousands of mythical Kenyans would want to make an easy $100k a year if they could just make minor adjustments and switch over to trail ultras? That probably converts to $1M based on average wages.
Rupp and Lutkenhaus got that money because they're American. You really think that none of those thousands of mythical Kenyans would want to make an easy $100k a year if they could just make minor adjustments and switch over to trail ultras? That probably converts to $1M based on average wages.
Hey, Captain DNF,
they don’t want to make $100k or stay in Kenya. Have you not seen the D1 landscape in the past 5 years? Are you not seeing the Kenyan born American citizens showing up at usatf’s and US road races after putting in their time in the US military?
You really think they want a $5k/year training salary from Salomon to win a belt buckle just so they can qualify for UTMB. UTMB can only have one winner and happens once per year, genius. I’m talking about making the whole sport as a whole a little more lucrative and then all of a sudden everything from Badwater to backyard ultras, to your local 24km trail races gets over run once they start paying out $10k-$20k per winner.
Why would you not want a Kipchoge or a Kiplimo in your sport to elevate things for everyone. I guarantee you’d get a better quality live stream of your favorite events than something currently recorded on a Nokia flip phone
I would love to see Kipchoge or Kiplimo at UTMB. You're the one claiming that there are dozens of well trained runners in Kenya who don't want to make $100k in ultras even tho they totally could. Total BS.
I would love to see Kipchoge or Kiplimo at UTMB. You're the one claiming that there are dozens of well trained runners in Kenya who don't want to make $100k in ultras even tho they totally could. Total BS.
You know what else does not exist? $100k trail races. Not one single trail race in existence comes close to that figure. No one is turning down $100k trail race victories because that has never been an option. Good luck with your next DNF, hope your quads are trained for the brutal downhills
Imagine if the beast Kipchoge ran UTMB this weekend. It would be insane. He’d probably run it in 18 and change hours. He could take a nap and Tom Evans, Francois Dhahene, Ben Dhiman, etc would still have a hard time catching up to him. It wouldn’t be fair even. Puppi and Eli Hemming may cry as well in CCC. How amazing do you think Kipchoge would do at UTMB events?
Kipchoge wouldn't even finish a marathon distance at UMTB. Right now it's raining there. Wasn't it at the London Marathon where he had a bad race with rain?
How many DNF’s do you have in 50 mile races? And how many paragraphs have you written in your Instagram race reports moaning about food that didn’t sit well it your tummy or headlamps that died on you that garnered less than 5 likes because no one cares about your sport or excuses? See? Your skill level in trail running doesn’t have to validate or invalidate your opinion or speculation in this thread. Your intelligence does though.
Man, you really struggle to stay on topic, don’t you? Marathon running is a long distance running sport. Trail running is a long distance power hiking sport with some downhill running thrown in. Whatever skill is involved when it comes to navigating some rocky single track or tree root covered dirt is a learnable low level skill for someone who is already logging hundreds and hundreds of miles per month. Same with timing your lmnt electrolytes and rice krispey treats at aid stations. 100 mile races can be figured out by the top tier elite level marathon runners. They have so much more talent and athletic ability to cover whatever “trail running experience” gaps exist between them and a world record holder who averaged a 7:30 mile pace on the trails. Running is running. These guys weigh 115lbs, routinely split 4:30-4:40 mile pace, maintaining a heart rate below 170bpm at that pace for 26.2 miles. I’ve never been more sure of anything in my life that they would be absolutely cruising on any vert, on any terrain, holding a 7:30 mile pace and keeping the heart rate below 125bpm - the fueling needs drastically drop if they held that “all day pace”
you are also comparing a short sprint event to field events and hoping that comparison will impress me enough to back down from my argument? From Jesse Owens all the way up to Carl Lewis, 100m sprinters would compete and win at the long jump. Less than a year ago, Mondo(pole vaulter) beat Warholm(sprint hurdler) in a 100m race and ran it a lot faster than the women’s world record. Going back to staying on topic, elite level distance runners can transfer their athletic prowess for other long distance running events outside of their specified skill set.
Absolutely not true. In 100 mile trail running, the running part is the least of your problems. It's the nutrition, the weather and the trail and how you respond to that which makes you successful or not. Most Marathon runners will have problems with the nutrition needed for 100 milers. A good stomach and running with all that food is one of the key talents of an ultra trail runner. Also running at night on a unknown trail is much harder than running a Marathon on pavement. While there are a very few successful good Marathon runners also successful in trail ultras but most of them will fail because they don't have the skills needed for running ultra trails. End of story.
Absolutely not true. In 100 mile trail running, the running part is the least of your problems. It's the nutrition, the weather and the trail and how you respond to that which makes you successful or not. Most Marathon runners will have problems with the nutrition needed for 100 milers. A good stomach and running with all that food is one of the key talents of an ultra trail runner. Also running at night on a unknown trail is much harder than running a Marathon on pavement. While there are a very few successful good Marathon runners also successful in trail ultras but most of them will fail because they don't have the skills needed for running ultra trails. End of story.
Reading comprehension is a skill. Elite marathoners require less calories because their bodies have less demands and is functionally more efficient. If they are dropping their pace by 3min/mile they need much less to keep going. Less impact on the gut. Percentage wise they are using a ton more oxygen as fuel and sipping on fat stores.
Given their weekly/monthly training loads that commonly including a lot of double days that range anywhere from 35-50km’s over years, they are taking on loads of nutrition and digesting it. Stop overcomplicating it. Bodies adapt quite quickly. Ultra runners guts are biologically similar to elite marathon runners guts. There is not some special genetic difference that would prohibit an elite marathon from training their gut relatively quickly to the demands of a 100 miler.
Elite marathoners train with CGM’s, take blood lactate readings constantly, eat simple carbs non stop throughout the day and during runs. Hitting 2 long runs a week of 40km each, all while taking on fuel. It’s not an exaggeration to assume their guts are trained to take on fuel constantly, up to 100g of carbs/hr while running at high intensity. They are running almost 365 days a year.
For the sake of the argument, let’s both agree that physiologically, Kipchoge has the aerobic capabilities of running an 18-19 hour 100 miler. How many hours of that are spent in the dark with a headlamp? Maybe the first two hours of the race until 6am, and then the last couple hours from 8pm-10/11pm? Is he somehow limited to 12 minute mile pace now for this duration, and your ultra guys turn into cats with night vision and starting ripping 6 minute miles through the dark abyss?
It’s gonna be fun in the next few years to watch when they start airdropping the Kenyans and Ethiopians into your night races they crowd the podium
Kipchoge wouldn't even finish a marathon distance at UMTB. Right now it's raining there. Wasn't it at the London Marathon where he had a bad race with rain?
In the same amount of time it took you to search for that video, you also could have read that he ran a 2:06 marathon with a sinus infection. Then sought medical attention after finishing the race. I know it isn’t ignorance when the trail runners say things like this. So why the dishonesty? You gobble up the whiny race reports from your trail heroes when they DNF, but intentionally omit real facts in order to dismiss the potential of high quality road runners achievements?
Reading comprehension is a skill. Elite marathoners require less calories because their bodies have less demands and is functionally more efficient. If they are dropping their pace by 3min/mile they need much less to keep going. Less impact on the gut. Percentage wise they are using a ton more oxygen as fuel and sipping on fat stores.
Given their weekly/monthly training loads that commonly including a lot of double days that range anywhere from 35-50km’s over years, they are taking on loads of nutrition and digesting it. Stop overcomplicating it. Bodies adapt quite quickly. Ultra runners guts are biologically similar to elite marathon runners guts. There is not some special genetic difference that would prohibit an elite marathon from training their gut relatively quickly to the demands of a 100 miler.
Elite marathoners train with CGM’s, take blood lactate readings constantly, eat simple carbs non stop throughout the day and during runs. Hitting 2 long runs a week of 40km each, all while taking on fuel. It’s not an exaggeration to assume their guts are trained to take on fuel constantly, up to 100g of carbs/hr while running at high intensity. They are running almost 365 days a year.
For the sake of the argument, let’s both agree that physiologically, Kipchoge has the aerobic capabilities of running an 18-19 hour 100 miler. How many hours of that are spent in the dark with a headlamp? Maybe the first two hours of the race until 6am, and then the last couple hours from 8pm-10/11pm? Is he somehow limited to 12 minute mile pace now for this duration, and your ultra guys turn into cats with night vision and starting ripping 6 minute miles through the dark abyss?
It’s gonna be fun in the next few years to watch when they start airdropping the Kenyans and Ethiopians into your night races they crowd the podium
Sounds like you have never raced an ultramarathon ever.
Elite Marathoners are the better runners for sure but they don't have the skills needed for ultramarathons. And NO, you can't just learn that. You either have a tough stomach or you don't. Most very fast runners have actually a very fickle stomach. So now we won't see Kenyans and Ethiopians showing up at UMTB just like they fail to show up at Comrades in South Africa and that's just 90k or so.
In the same amount of time it took you to search for that video, you also could have read that he ran a 2:06 marathon with a sinus infection. Then sought medical attention after finishing the race. I know it isn’t ignorance when the trail runners say things like this. So why the dishonesty? You gobble up the whiny race reports from your trail heroes when they DNF, but intentionally omit real facts in order to dismiss the potential of high quality road runners achievements?
Eliud Kipchoge is the best Marathon runner on earth no question about that but he would have zero chance in a ultra trail marathon. Comrades, maybe but no trail ultras.
Sounds like you have never raced an ultramarathon ever.
Elite Marathoners are the better runners for sure but they don't have the skills needed for ultramarathons. And NO, you can't just learn that. You either have a tough stomach or you don't. Most very fast runners have actually a very fickle stomach. So now we won't see Kenyans and Ethiopians showing up at UMTB just like they fail to show up at Comrades in South Africa and that's just 90k or so.
I can’t tell if I’m missing something or if you are missing something. Are these skills not learned? Can people not just learn how to run uphill or downhill? Can people not learn how to eat simple ingredient foods that are high in carbohydrates and low in fats while they jog for a day? Do you need to be born with the ability to strapping a 1500 lumen headlamp to your forehead and navigate a forest for 15 miles?
Im sure you missed this read from a couple years back
kinda cool to look back see how many maurten gels and maurten bars that Jornet consumed during Hardrock 100 and UTMB. Kipchoge consumes a lot of the same stuff(sponsored by maurten) running at a much higher intensity, so much for a sensitive stomach. His daily meals are quite similar to Jornet’s when it comes to base nutrients
The double Olympic gold medallist and world record holder needs to sustain himself for hours during his training and on race days, but prefers to keep his food very simple. Find out about his diet here.
you really want to keep those East Africans out, huh? Wouldn’t want to ruin the purity of UTMB.
btw, drop your fastest time in your furthest ultra and I’ll let you know if I have you beat :) and if I haven’t run that far yet, I’ll report back in a year and beat your time by an hour!
btw, drop your fastest time in your furthest ultra and I’ll let you know if I have you beat :) and if I haven’t run that far yet, I’ll report back in a year and beat your time by an hour!
Tell me you don't understand trail races without telling me you don't understand trail races
