Nick Willis in his mid- or late-30s tried to see if he could run a sub-50 in practice (He wasn't sure whether he had ever been capable of it and was testing himself because people had been debating it on LetsRun) and succeeded. I doubt there are any top middle-distance guys who can't, fairly easily. The guys who are more "strength-based" runners usually understate their natural speed.
Says the guy who didn't know the human body produces EPO. Who thought cross training meant treadmill running. Who didn't know Aregawi is one of the best 3000m runners ever...
Point of reference this is what Willis said of his 400 speed. I think Hocker split 48-high as part of a pacing/relay quadruple last year. He can probably split 47 when sharper I think. This 400 isn’t easy to assess without context, but he looked quite controlled.
Willis: ”Hey Guys, My 400 relay PB is 48.4, and my FAT is 50.07, which was set in HS (I split 48.6 right around that time). As much as I have tried to improve my speed since HS, I have had little success. I put this down to many more miles in my legs, and the inability to taper sufficiently to get the pop back to really roll a 4hundy. My 200m PB from HS is 23.40 (FAT), and I have split 22.9 at the start of relay legs. So why would my 400 FAT be so much slower than my rolling start, but my 200m have less differential? We used to race 100m and 200m most weekends in HS as a secondary event (these were city club meets in NZ), and thus our block starts were of a reasonable standard. However, the challenge I found for the 400m was not the reaction time, but the power required to get up to speed. I had used up so much explosive energy to get up to speed, that by the time I reached the home straight, I was toast. From a rolling start, I can get up to speed with little effort, and coast for the first 250m, and still hold form reasonably well through tot he finish line. So there you have it. I am stuck as a non-sub50 guy, and it hurts! The fastest milers I have seen are Nate Brannen (46.8 relay), Gabe Jennings (10.9 100m rolling), and David Krummenacker (I bet he could split 45 high, 46 low). I'm sure Wheating could roll too.”
Point of reference this is what Willis said of his 400 speed. I think Hocker split 48-high as part of a pacing/relay quadruple last year. He can probably split 47 when sharper I think. This 400 isn’t easy to assess without context, but he looked quite controlled.
Willis: ”Hey Guys, My 400 relay PB is 48.4, and my FAT is 50.07, which was set in HS (I split 48.6 right around that time). As much as I have tried to improve my speed since HS, I have had little success. I put this down to many more miles in my legs, and the inability to taper sufficiently to get the pop back to really roll a 4hundy. My 200m PB from HS is 23.40 (FAT), and I have split 22.9 at the start of relay legs. So why would my 400 FAT be so much slower than my rolling start, but my 200m have less differential? We used to race 100m and 200m most weekends in HS as a secondary event (these were city club meets in NZ), and thus our block starts were of a reasonable standard. However, the challenge I found for the 400m was not the reaction time, but the power required to get up to speed. I had used up so much explosive energy to get up to speed, that by the time I reached the home straight, I was toast. From a rolling start, I can get up to speed with little effort, and coast for the first 250m, and still hold form reasonably well through tot he finish line. So there you have it. I am stuck as a non-sub50 guy, and it hurts! The fastest milers I have seen are Nate Brannen (46.8 relay), Gabe Jennings (10.9 100m rolling), and David Krummenacker (I bet he could split 45 high, 46 low). I'm sure Wheating could roll too.”
from this i get in the high school capability is at least 49.4, with middle D training
running from the blocks isn't really a proper measure, starting is a skill, explosion over 20m is a specific muscle thing, rolling start is the useful speed.
then when you're running mileage, and not tapering and doing the specific work for 400m, sub 49 is a real task, that said, not breaking 50 for a fast guy like Willis is very surprising,
i understand that every week willis ran 100m sprints, running start, 11 seconds mid, or is this a misquote.
myself, was fast on the football pitch, ran 10.9 100m rolling in HS, and that was hand timed, and with adding on 0.2 seconds for hand time vs electric, and 1 second for the start we have 12.1 which is nothing spectacular, and am genuinely shocked to hear few 1500 guys didn't routinely break 11 at lease in rolling start 100s.
i would have expected all elite milers to break 11 rolling start.
that said, back in the day, rolling 100m times wasn't really looked at much, but 200m for basic speed, and 400m times certainly were.
according to the lydiard formula you need 22 sec 200m to be a miler and 21 high to be an 800 guy, that is to be elite. and the quarter was 49 in HS senior, and 48 later, but on middle D training.
This is why he can close a 13:26 5k in sub 52 and no one else in the world can.
Close a 13:26 5000m In sub 52? I would guess Laros could do it. Peak Jakob could possibly do it. Bernard Lagat ran sub 52 in a 12:59 in 2006 to defeat Kenenisa.
No way in hell could Jakob do it. The fastest close from him was from Budapest 5k (similar winning time to the US trial), and that's being pulled along by Katir the whole way. Even then it's only mid-52. The only other guy who could possibly do it is Kerr, if he has the ambition to go for double like Hocker.
And I chuckled when someone mentioned Nuguse, who's always outkicked and he closed in like 54 in a 3:33 race.
As for Lagat, that's true. However he (along Bekele and other top guys in that era) had access to full-throttled EPO while Hocker can only use microdosing. It definitely helped with the kick as you're never out of breath.
Close a 13:26 5000m In sub 52? I would guess Laros could do it. Peak Jakob could possibly do it. Bernard Lagat ran sub 52 in a 12:59 in 2006 to defeat Kenenisa.
No way in hell could Jakob do it. The fastest close from him was from Budapest 5k (similar winning time to the US trial), and that's being pulled along by Katir the whole way. Even then it's only mid-52. The only other guy who could possibly do it is Kerr, if he has the ambition to go for double like Hocker.
And I chuckled when someone mentioned Nuguse, who's always outkicked and he closed in like 54 in a 3:33 race.
As for Lagat, that's true. However he (along Bekele and other top guys in that era) had access to full-throttled EPO while Hocker can only use microdosing. It definitely helped with the kick as you're never out of breath.
Well you are out of your league here. Lagat ran sub 52 in a 12:59, and you are telling me that a guy who ran 3:26 and 7:17 couldn’t run sub 52 to close a 13:26 in his prime? This is laughable. I am guessing you might be smart enough, or maybe it is wishful thinking, to know that Jakob would be running 13:40 pace until the last lap, to then close in 51.99 for the 13:26.
Point of reference this is what Willis said of his 400 speed. I think Hocker split 48-high as part of a pacing/relay quadruple last year. He can probably split 47 when sharper I think. This 400 isn’t easy to assess without context, but he looked quite controlled.
Willis: ”Hey Guys, My 400 relay PB is 48.4, and my FAT is 50.07, which was set in HS (I split 48.6 right around that time). As much as I have tried to improve my speed since HS, I have had little success. I put this down to many more miles in my legs, and the inability to taper sufficiently to get the pop back to really roll a 4hundy. My 200m PB from HS is 23.40 (FAT), and I have split 22.9 at the start of relay legs. So why would my 400 FAT be so much slower than my rolling start, but my 200m have less differential? We used to race 100m and 200m most weekends in HS as a secondary event (these were city club meets in NZ), and thus our block starts were of a reasonable standard. However, the challenge I found for the 400m was not the reaction time, but the power required to get up to speed. I had used up so much explosive energy to get up to speed, that by the time I reached the home straight, I was toast. From a rolling start, I can get up to speed with little effort, and coast for the first 250m, and still hold form reasonably well through tot he finish line. So there you have it. I am stuck as a non-sub50 guy, and it hurts! The fastest milers I have seen are Nate Brannen (46.8 relay), Gabe Jennings (10.9 100m rolling), and David Krummenacker (I bet he could split 45 high, 46 low). I'm sure Wheating could roll too.”
Why do yall always inflate times? For most distance runners being “fresh” doesn’t make a difference when it comes to all out 4s.
lots of mid 15 guys could run 47s. Coe could split 45, same with Clayton Murphy. Jonah koech is probably your best bet on splitting 47 or faster in recent years.
If Hocker can go sub 52 in a 13:26 it is even more certain that Jakob can do it since he aerobically is much stronger. And since he at least can run a 47 in the 400m with flying start.
Budapest 2023: You mean the race where Jakob was sick so he has to hang on at the rail to save energy until the last 300m which he ran in 39 low.
No way in hell could Jakob do it. The fastest close from him was from Budapest 5k (similar winning time to the US trial), and that's being pulled along by Katir the whole way. Even then it's only mid-52. The only other guy who could possibly do it is Kerr, if he has the ambition to go for double like Hocker.
And I chuckled when someone mentioned Nuguse, who's always outkicked and he closed in like 54 in a 3:33 race.
As for Lagat, that's true. However he (along Bekele and other top guys in that era) had access to full-throttled EPO while Hocker can only use microdosing. It definitely helped with the kick as you're never out of breath.
Well you are out of your league here. Lagat ran sub 52 in a 12:59, and you are telling me that a guy who ran 3:26 and 7:17 couldn’t run sub 52 to close a 13:26 in his prime? This is laughable. I am guessing you might be smart enough, or maybe it is wishful thinking, to know that Jakob would be running 13:40 pace until the last lap, to then close in 51.99 for the 13:26.
Didn't Morceli run a 50 sec last lap in the Zurich 5000m back in the 90s to beat all the greats of the time such as Geb, Skah, etc ...
Didn't Centro do some killer 400 repeats in one of his big lead ups to winning Gold? something like this last rep Cole did but a few more times? Weird how some will slander Centro on here and treat Hocker like he is the goat.
Says the guy who didn't know the human body produces EPO. Who thought cross training meant treadmill running. Who didn't know Aregawi is one of the best 3000m runners ever...
Stfu. You are stupid beyond belief.
So how do you, too, know that this wasn't Hocker's pr over the distance? Just another of your dumb guesses?
Point of reference this is what Willis said of his 400 speed. I think Hocker split 48-high as part of a pacing/relay quadruple last year. He can probably split 47 when sharper I think. This 400 isn’t easy to assess without context, but he looked quite controlled.
Willis: ”Hey Guys, My 400 relay PB is 48.4, and my FAT is 50.07, which was set in HS (I split 48.6 right around that time). As much as I have tried to improve my speed since HS, I have had little success. I put this down to many more miles in my legs, and the inability to taper sufficiently to get the pop back to really roll a 4hundy. My 200m PB from HS is 23.40 (FAT), and I have split 22.9 at the start of relay legs. So why would my 400 FAT be so much slower than my rolling start, but my 200m have less differential? We used to race 100m and 200m most weekends in HS as a secondary event (these were city club meets in NZ), and thus our block starts were of a reasonable standard. However, the challenge I found for the 400m was not the reaction time, but the power required to get up to speed. I had used up so much explosive energy to get up to speed, that by the time I reached the home straight, I was toast. From a rolling start, I can get up to speed with little effort, and coast for the first 250m, and still hold form reasonably well through tot he finish line. So there you have it. I am stuck as a non-sub50 guy, and it hurts! The fastest milers I have seen are Nate Brannen (46.8 relay), Gabe Jennings (10.9 100m rolling), and David Krummenacker (I bet he could split 45 high, 46 low). I'm sure Wheating could roll too.”
You guys bandy times around as though they mean nothing. You "think" Hocker split 48-high in a relay - so you don't know for a fact. If it was a relay that means he isn't faster than 49-mid or high out of the blocks. 47 is another order of speed. It would put him in the Joachim Cruz class, who ran 1:41.77 for the 800. So has Hocker run faster than 1:45 for the 800? He isn't an 800 runner so it is extremely unlikely that he has any significant turn of speed over the 400.
Point of reference this is what Willis said of his 400 speed. I think Hocker split 48-high as part of a pacing/relay quadruple last year. He can probably split 47 when sharper I think. This 400 isn’t easy to assess without context, but he looked quite controlled.
Willis: ”Hey Guys, My 400 relay PB is 48.4, and my FAT is 50.07, which was set in HS (I split 48.6 right around that time). As much as I have tried to improve my speed since HS, I have had little success. I put this down to many more miles in my legs, and the inability to taper sufficiently to get the pop back to really roll a 4hundy. My 200m PB from HS is 23.40 (FAT), and I have split 22.9 at the start of relay legs. So why would my 400 FAT be so much slower than my rolling start, but my 200m have less differential? We used to race 100m and 200m most weekends in HS as a secondary event (these were city club meets in NZ), and thus our block starts were of a reasonable standard. However, the challenge I found for the 400m was not the reaction time, but the power required to get up to speed. I had used up so much explosive energy to get up to speed, that by the time I reached the home straight, I was toast. From a rolling start, I can get up to speed with little effort, and coast for the first 250m, and still hold form reasonably well through tot he finish line. So there you have it. I am stuck as a non-sub50 guy, and it hurts! The fastest milers I have seen are Nate Brannen (46.8 relay), Gabe Jennings (10.9 100m rolling), and David Krummenacker (I bet he could split 45 high, 46 low). I'm sure Wheating could roll too.”
from this i get in the high school capability is at least 49.4, with middle D training
running from the blocks isn't really a proper measure, starting is a skill, explosion over 20m is a specific muscle thing, rolling start is the useful speed.
then when you're running mileage, and not tapering and doing the specific work for 400m, sub 49 is a real task, that said, not breaking 50 for a fast guy like Willis is very surprising,
i understand that every week willis ran 100m sprints, running start, 11 seconds mid, or is this a misquote.
myself, was fast on the football pitch, ran 10.9 100m rolling in HS, and that was hand timed, and with adding on 0.2 seconds for hand time vs electric, and 1 second for the start we have 12.1 which is nothing spectacular, and am genuinely shocked to hear few 1500 guys didn't routinely break 11 at lease in rolling start 100s.
i would have expected all elite milers to break 11 rolling start.
that said, back in the day, rolling 100m times wasn't really looked at much, but 200m for basic speed, and 400m times certainly were.
according to the lydiard formula you need 22 sec 200m to be a miler and 21 high to be an 800 guy, that is to be elite. and the quarter was 49 in HS senior, and 48 later, but on middle D training.
You misquote Lydiard. He didn't say you need to be a 22 sec guy to be an elite miler. Most aren't. He suggested that 22-23 could make you a half miler. Snell was a 22.3 guy and double 800 Olympic champion. Lydiard said endurance would trump speed, as Snell showed against the likes of George Kerr, who was a 21sec guy.
If Hocker can go sub 52 in a 13:26 it is even more certain that Jakob can do it since he aerobically is much stronger. And since he at least can run a 47 in the 400m with flying start.
Budapest 2023: You mean the race where Jakob was sick so he has to hang on at the rail to save energy until the last 300m which he ran in 39 low.
There is no way Jakob could run 47 or thereabouts over 400. If he could he would be running 1:42 or better over the 800 with his endurance. He certainly wouldn't routinely be outkicked by runners in the 1500 who couldn't get near 47.