When a man joined her women’s [track] team, Caroline Hill lost records, privacy, and trust. Now she’s suing the NCAA

Faux News, NYPost.

What are the other factors besides hormones?

Period.

After 6-12 months of GAHT, researchers have found that transgender women had similar strength, biomarker profiles, and endurance (VO₂max) compared to cisgender women.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39965884/

After 2 years of GAHT, no advantage was observed for physical performance measured by running time or in trans women. By 4 years, there was no advantage in sit-ups. While push-up performance declined in trans women, a statistical advantage remained relative to cisgender women.

https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/109/2/e455/7223439?login=true

It's a little disingenuous to look at her 3000m time as a college senior when she was competing as a sprinter. She ran 24.1 and 56- flat, which are light years better than 4:40/10:07 (as a female vs. male performance).

I'm also very confused as the athlete you linked (Evie Parts) is not the athlete in question (Sadie Schreiner) from the original article?

For what it's worth, I also read the second article you posted above (the first was a dead link for me). The studies in the analysis looked at the general population (army) pre and post transitioning where there is WAY more overlap in performance between genders as they are not top athletes, optimally trained.

While it was true that two years of hormone therapy resulted in no difference in the 1.5 mile run between trans women and cis women, there was also no difference in the 1.5 mile run between trans women and CIS MEN!

Its a valid argument: should transitioning ameliorate the sex-advantage, trans women should compete with cis-women. I don't think there is strong data to support that in the elite level and it would really need to be event by event and sport by sport. There are some sports (basketball as an example) where hand size and height would clearly create such a huge advantage.

You can’t establish social norms based on people born with rare birth defects.

Categories clearly need to be added to the special Olympic to accommodate these conditions.

As a HS senior boy, Sadie (then Camden) was pretty good, ran 23.0 and 50 for 200/400.

After transitioning prs are 24.1 and 55, so she got slower, but barely in the 200.

That 24.1 got her 3rd at 2024 DIII outdoor championship. Third in the men’s 200 was 21.0, basically light years ahead of her best mark as a male.

So unsurprisingly - good but not great male sprinter becomes All American female sprinter. Who would have guessed.

Exactly! Just like we have siamese twins that share a body, we don't then say that the number of human legs we have as a species is on a spectrum. No, we continue to call humans bipedal. The exception does not change the rule....it's just a tiny percentage that is an outlier. People who have DSD have a disorder, it's a dysfunctional abnormality that makes many of them infertile, completely against the laws of nature not to be able to reproduce. Not trying to be rude...humans are also not supposed to have two heads connected to one body, but that happens sometimes with siamese twins.

You wrote "It is also obvious that transgender women have a significant advantage over women when it comes to sports." Not that Sadie Schreiner has a significant advantage over women. So your statement should apply to transgender women in general, including Evelyn Parts.

Do you think every transgender woman has a "significant advantage" regardless of (1) which sports or events they compete in, (2) when they started medical transition, (3) what their current testosterone level is, and (4) whether they have removed their testes? If so, what is the evidence? (Not evidence on Schreiner's advantage, but transwomen in general.)

Or do you think some transwomen might not have a "significant advantage" (or any advantage) depending on any combination of the four factors I stated above? If so, do you think all trans women should be excluded from women's sports even if some of them don't have any advantage?

There was no different in the first study with a smaller sample. (The top figures in the table with ^.) But transwomen were 16% slower than cis men after two years of HRT, and 22% slower after four years of HRT in the second study with a larger sample size (#).

Table 2 shows transwomen had the average VO2 Max of 33.5 compared to 35.7 for cis women and 42 for cis men. Interestingly enough, while the mean testosterone level of trans women is 3.2, it ranged from 0.4 to 22.1, meaning some transwomen in that sample had higher t-level than cis men.

These data are not on competitive athletes because there are so few trans women in competitive sports. And it is getting even harder to collect data on trans athletes because of recent bans. But let's forget about data because we already KNOW that trans women have significant advantage, right? Look at Lia Thomas!

Here is the link to the study of volleyball players in Brazil. You can read the full text by clicking on the link at the top right.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Body composition, exercise-related performance parameters and associated health factors of transgender women, cisgender women and cisgender men volleyball players - PubMed

TW athletes displayed similar exercise performance and biomarkers compared with CW but lower results compared with CM.

Open link

IMO yes. This is not an issue with F2M trans, not just because females are physically disadvantaged. It's not an issue because females tend not to be aggressive boundary violators. Violating boundaries, invading others' spaces, forcing oneself into places where one is unwelcome, recreational rule-breaking,... These are mostly male traits. If it were done any other way we would call it very toxic masculinity. But those same impulses exhibited by a male when he calls himself a woman have been tolerated.

...when he calls himself a woman and the spaces he invades are women's spaces. Why is that ok?

Trying to measure the exact advantage in any particular case is a smokescreen used to obscure the real issue. Men as a group have an advantage over women as a group, and transwomen are men, so they should compete with men.

As far as measuring the advantage of transwomen, there are basically no good studies on this. You would need several hundred men competing at a high level, have them all transition, make sure they continue to train and compete with the same intensity as before, and then compare their performances before and after, with years of follow-up. Comparing a few transwomen to a few ciswomen tells you nothing. You might just as well compare me to Katelyn Touhy and then conclude that women are faster than men.

People with Y chromosome as a group have an advantage over people without Y chromosome as a group. But we also know that not all people with Y chromosome are created equal. So over the years, IOC and World Athletics have curved out exceptions to people with certain types of 46XY DSD. (i.e. people with CAIS or Swyer Syndrome.)

Likewise, we can curve out exceptions to certain trans women depending on their hormonal level, when they started their HRT or whether they have surgically removed testes. We could also have different rules for different sports, since the advantage of male genetics is different from one sport to another.

And the fact that the number of relevant athletes is small is not a reason to make no exception. World Athletics had a DSD policy that affected 13 individuals in the entire world.

Or, we could let them compete as men, since that's what they are

Do you understand venn diagrams? I suppose you must be a nazi? Or a racist? Or think it's manly to put on make up and rape some people.

Yeah, they are allowed to finish DFL if they are not cut from the team.

athletic.net

Eliza Munshi - VA Track and Field Bio

Eliza Munshi - VA Track and Field results and photos on Athletic.net

Open link