- Kids who don't run with school teams, but instead chase times in "elite" races.
- Multiple "National Championships" which create chaos and dilute talent.
- Abundance of overage seniors.
- Shoes are the final nail in the coffin. Multiple sub-4s every year, which should be 4:08s or thereabouts.
It's all way too clinical and phoned-in. Too many "good runners" to keep track of. Vibes are just off. Really just interested in my local/state stuff now.
Lots of what OP is saying is true. It's a huge mess. These times don't make sense. There needs to be stricter rules and testing implementing, because none of it makes sense anymore. The overage seniors and the "national championship" BS really sets it off for me.
High school running should be just the athlete running for their own high school, at high school meets, and nothing more. State meets should be the final level of competition. No "unattached" or "national champ" BS. That was barely a thing 20 years ago.
There's no reason why you shouldn't have a national championship. They've had an English Schools National Championships in England for 100 years.
There is a strong club system in England and most athletes are coached through that - in schools (at least in my day) we had PE/Phys Ed teachers and they just coached general sports (so during PE/Phys Ed, it could be football (soccer), rugby, cricket, x-country or track, but general once a week).
The route to the National Championship is the school enters a runner in the area (for me it was a town) and the better ones go on to the County (administrative district like the State in the US). Those who run the qualifying time go on to run in the English Schools Championship.
In x-country there is program where you run for the school in the local championship and county championship, and if you qualify from county (top 6, I think) you run for your county in English Schools Championship.
In x-country there are also club-level championships for younger athletes, that go through county, area and nationals, all run while representing the club.
My experience was that I won the local 3000m, was third in the county (state), but wasn't fast enough to go to the nationals (probably the top 12 in the UK) and in x-country won the local, made the county team, and ran in the Nationals for my county, and also ran the various club championships at the same age, representing my club.
Other than entering me for the local and state championships, and their being a trial for the team, the school had zero impact on my athletic development, all of which came though the club system.
With all due respect, as a high school coach I couldn't care less about the "fans". It's youth sports, it's all about giving the kids the best possible experience.
I completely agree. The shoes are making a mockery of high school middle distance records. A 16-year-old high school sophomore just won the Nike Nationals boy's 800 meters and set a national record with a time of 1:45.45 --- a time that also would've won this year's D1 NCAA men's 800 final. In what universe does this make sense?
Is Cooper Lutkenhaus, the 16-year-old in question, a once-in-a-century talent, whose running prowess far surpasses that of previous high school greats like Jim Ryun and Steve Prefontaine? None of it makes sense, unless you include such important factors as super-spikes and PEDs such as the Maurten gels?
The shoes are making a mockery of high school middle distance records. A 16-year-old high school sophomore just won the Nike Nationals boy's 800 meters and set a national record with a time of 1:45.45 --- a time that also would've won this year's D1 NCAA men's 800 final. In what universe does this make sense?
Are you suggesting that D1 NCAA runners don't have access to these amazing shoes that are giving Lutkenhaus such a big advantage? Otherwise, the fact that he's faster than college stars suggests that he's a supreme talent, not that he's benefiting from technological progress that should make everyone faster.
To harp on this more... the two HS runners featured on the front page right now aren't even wearing their high school uniforms. They're wearing some Nike pro kits are something.
They should be repping their team. It's bizarre. Patriot Alan Webb wore his South Lakes uni when he ran 3:53.
In my home state I don't think they are allowed to wear uniforms to non sanctioned meets. The same is probably true of many other states.
Also recruiting and transfers and a team becomes an “all star team”
I can't count Bullis, IMG, Bishop McNamara, Union Catholic, etc as a high school team. So many of them come from out of district. Their coaches were collecting emails and phone numbers like mad at Penn this weekend. They should be in the club division and any relays not count towards HS records
The world has changed and many of you old farts need to understand that.
1. Want to run D1? Then you need to be an elite talent that can produce right away. The days of some plucky walk on rising to Olympic level greatness are over thanks to the House settlement.
2. Training methods are better. Talented kids want to train with coaches that utilize modern methodology, not crusty old gym teachers that still think running hard 400s until vomiting is the gold standard of preparation.
3. State athletic bureaucrats are also stuck in the past. Archaic rules, schools separated by divisions based on ball sports, and limitations on athletes have hindered domestic development for decades. The footwear companies saw an opportunity to create excitement and great match ups with athletes from across the country. Good on them for doing so!
4. More and more parents, especially those with boys, are taking advantage of the “Kindergarten Redshirt”. For many kids, it’s academically advantageous to hold of enrollment in school until age six. Many children are not intellectually and socially ready for school at age five. This isn’t some plot to create a master race of 19 year old high school seniors for the purpose of rewriting the record books.
5. Enough with the shoes! Technology evolved and all consumer products get better over time. The complaints nearly all come from old men miffed that their times, or those of their heroes, are getting eclipsed. Let it go or choose to be bitter, the wider world doesn’t care about your offense.
6. For all of the complaining, Americans have steadily become more competitive on the world stage. This is a good thing! It is sad that many of you desire a return to the horrible period that was the 1990s and early 2000s when the USA sent only pack fodder to international competitions. I can only surmise that some of you were “sub-elite” during the worst era of American running and would be complete non-factors today?
The kids are alright! Let them approach the sport on their own terms, not as some vehicle for your vicarious and unrealized dreams.
Sorry, the shoe complaint is the real deal. These carbon fiber plated shoes are like springs for the feet, they propel you forward, not just a light weight shoe, but an actual performance enhancer. Todays runners want to pretend its all them, it isn't. Be honest folks.
I am sure the Nurmi would complain about how advanced our shoes back in the 90s were. Also how many world class athletes from the 2010s or earlier have complained and said super shoes are way to much of an advantage rather than the natural progression of the sport.
Also recruiting and transfers and a team becomes an “all star team”
I can't count Bullis, IMG, Bishop McNamara, Union Catholic, etc as a high school team. So many of them come from out of district. Their coaches were collecting emails and phone numbers like mad at Penn this weekend. They should be in the club division and any relays not count towards HS records
IMG isn't even allowed to compete at their state meet because of recruiting violations.
The shoes are making a mockery of high school middle distance records. A 16-year-old high school sophomore just won the Nike Nationals boy's 800 meters and set a national record with a time of 1:45.45 --- a time that also would've won this year's D1 NCAA men's 800 final. In what universe does this make sense?
Are you suggesting that D1 NCAA runners don't have access to these amazing shoes that are giving Lutkenhaus such a big advantage? Otherwise, the fact that he's faster than college stars suggests that he's a supreme talent, not that he's benefiting from technological progress that should make everyone faster.
Are you suggesting that the shoes are a huge scam and we can all do without? Is that what you’re suggesting? I’d like to see that.
Are you suggesting that D1 NCAA runners don't have access to these amazing shoes that are giving Lutkenhaus such a big advantage? Otherwise, the fact that he's faster than college stars suggests that he's a supreme talent, not that he's benefiting from technological progress that should make everyone faster.
Are you suggesting that the shoes are a huge scam and we can all do without? Is that what you’re suggesting? I’d like to see that.
Some of these old curmudgeons are really living in a fantasy world where they think that technology shouldn't benefit shoe design.
But some of them must be Nike Shills doing a reverse psychology troll shtick. I wonder how much commission brojos get for that?🤔
Are you suggesting that the shoes are a huge scam and we can all do without? Is that what you’re suggesting? I’d like to see that.
Some of these old curmudgeons are really living in a fantasy world where they think that technology shouldn't benefit shoe design.
But some of them must be Nike Shills doing a reverse psychology troll shtick. I wonder how much commission brojos get for that?🤔
lol! I’m neither. But what is it? Either they give an advantage over times from the past or they don’t. If they don’t, what’s the point? If they do, what’s the point? The only reason behind them would be to compete against times from the past. Right? Either way, they are a waste of money. But here we are. nikes played you all for fools.
2% improvement is a modest estimate for the super shoes. This is 5 seconds faster for a 4 min mile. They matter.
The shoes changed race times, no question about it. Before there were about 40 US runners breaking 4:00 or equivalent per year with 0-3 HS runners per year. Now the number of US runners is over 100.
The only measurement that matters by comparison is rankings. Previously a 3:58 would qualify for NCAA (24 runners). Now a 3:55 is required where previously that was a standout likely to win. HS time shift has been similar. Only rankings can give an accurate evaluation because a 4:00 mile is much more accessible now.
To harp on this more... the two HS runners featured on the front page right now aren't even wearing their high school uniforms. They're wearing some Nike pro kits are something.
They should be repping their team. It's bizarre. Patriot Alan Webb wore his South Lakes uni when he ran 3:53.
Dude. You know that most state high school federations prohibit kids from wearing their high school uniforms at out of season events, right? As in both the school and the kid can get into trouble, including the kid getting banned from competing?
That's why you don't usually see the kids wearing their high school uniforms at Nike Outdoor Nationals/New Balance Outdoor Nationals, etc. Or at the NXN or Footlocker XC meets.
You do see them wearing their club uniforms sometimes.
Also, many states limit coaching in the off season. Some states are more lax—think the states where you hear about coaches coaching club teams that reach NXN—but I think the majority really restrict it. (This was an adjustment for me coming from a state I ran in which had few out-of-season, or even in-season racing restrictions to now living in a state where my kids have to be aware of the restrictions and not accidentally run afoul of them.)
Also, high school is about the fun and vibes. I mean, goodness, these are just kids. If you're not watching it as an adult because your local high school down the road has someone in some cool meet, or your kids are in it, then . . . I mean, I dunno.
Or, to quote the Princess Bride: "I don't think it means what you think it means."