Norwegian singles thread, may I introduce Stuck on 18:00? It's his first time. Stuck on 18:00, the Norwegian singles thread. You'll get on like a house on fire. Champagne is circulating and do help yourselves to the vol au vents, they're awfully good. I must mingle - I'll see you two later. Have fun!
I'm stuck around 18 flat for 5k. I was thinking of dropping interval workouts and doing two 20 minute tempo runs a week at threshold pace, with strides. Pace would be 6:10-15.
Could this work considering there would be no faster running, except for the strides?
It could work if you race frequently in the weekends. The races would then work as your weekly maxVO2 workout.
Never said it wasn't possible, just skeptical that he was doing that sort of work multiple times a week while running 100-110 miles with a hilly long run and a 12 miler also, especially on grass. These guys didn't have GPS watches so probably you have to take what they say with a grain of salt. 4:30 per mile is fast, it would be like closing an hour run with a 14:00 5k, his PB was 27:39 for 10k, so it would be an all out training run, and he didn't believe in training that hard.
I'm not sure what you mean by multiple times a week. He did 10-12 mile runs with progressively faster paces multiple times a week but that doesn't mean the pace got to 4:30 in each run. And he never said how much distance he kept that 4:30 pace for once he got to it. Maybe it was a couple miles, maybe a half mile, maybe one of those options on one day and the other on another day.
but I thought you told us you knew what he did. Now you are telling us you have no clue if he ran 1 mile at 4:30 or 3 or if it was done 1x week or 3x…..
As I said the details on what he did would be fascinating. But I doubt anyone (even Clarke) had them. He knew he did a hard hour with picking up the pace but he wasn’t tracking stuff in enough details to figure out his training distribution.
I'm not sure what you mean by multiple times a week. He did 10-12 mile runs with progressively faster paces multiple times a week but that doesn't mean the pace got to 4:30 in each run. And he never said how much distance he kept that 4:30 pace for once he got to it. Maybe it was a couple miles, maybe a half mile, maybe one of those options on one day and the other on another day.
but I thought you told us you knew what he did. Now you are telling us you have no clue if he ran 1 mile at 4:30 or 3 or if it was done 1x week or 3x…..
As I said the details on what he did would be fascinating. But I doubt anyone (even Clarke) had them. He knew he did a hard hour with picking up the pace but he wasn’t tracking stuff in enough details to figure out his training distribution.
I told you what he did twice. He ran by feel in the way I described. That's not enough for you, not detailed enough? I can't help that but almost anyone who is marginally reasonable would agree that I told them what Ron did. I know this because I've told people who were interested in what Ron did and they told me they appreciated that I did that. Many people run by feel and you're not going to be able to get the sort of numbers you're looking for. But if I tell you so and so nearly always ran by feel and then give you some description of that usually was done I have told you what so and so did.
but I thought you told us you knew what he did. Now you are telling us you have no clue if he ran 1 mile at 4:30 or 3 or if it was done 1x week or 3x…..
As I said the details on what he did would be fascinating. But I doubt anyone (even Clarke) had them. He knew he did a hard hour with picking up the pace but he wasn’t tracking stuff in enough details to figure out his training distribution.
I told you what he did twice. He ran by feel in the way I described. That's not enough for you, not detailed enough? I can't help that but almost anyone who is marginally reasonable would agree that I told them what Ron did. I know this because I've told people who were interested in what Ron did and they told me they appreciated that I did that. Many people run by feel and you're not going to be able to get the sort of numbers you're looking for. But if I tell you so and so nearly always ran by feel and then give you some description of that usually was done I have told you what so and so did.
Exactly. We will never know what Ron did. That is exactly what I said that you disagreed with for some reason. You can’t tell me if he did 3 hours week of LT2 work or 1. You can’t say if he did 30 mins of CV work or 10. And so on.
We all know the vague description. It is missing all the interesting parts. It is great to know mom’s cake had flour, sugar, and some eggs. But if you are trying to reproduce her cake, you need a lot more details.
I told you what he did twice. He ran by feel in the way I described. That's not enough for you, not detailed enough? I can't help that but almost anyone who is marginally reasonable would agree that I told them what Ron did. I know this because I've told people who were interested in what Ron did and they told me they appreciated that I did that. Many people run by feel and you're not going to be able to get the sort of numbers you're looking for. But if I tell you so and so nearly always ran by feel and then give you some description of that usually was done I have told you what so and so did.
Exactly. We will never know what Ron did. That is exactly what I said that you disagreed with for some reason. You can’t tell me if he did 3 hours week of LT2 work or 1. You can’t say if he did 30 mins of CV work or 10. And so on.
We all know the vague description. It is missing all the interesting parts. It is great to know mom’s cake had flour, sugar, and some eggs. But if you are trying to reproduce her cake, you need a lot more details.
I am perfectly satisfied that I know what Ron did. If you feel like you need to know that stuff then YOU'LL feel like you'll never know what Ron did. I don't know how often he ran with his dogs or how fast he went when his wife biked along side him but I still am satisfied that I know what he did.
Exactly. We will never know what Ron did. That is exactly what I said that you disagreed with for some reason. You can’t tell me if he did 3 hours week of LT2 work or 1. You can’t say if he did 30 mins of CV work or 10. And so on.
We all know the vague description. It is missing all the interesting parts. It is great to know mom’s cake had flour, sugar, and some eggs. But if you are trying to reproduce her cake, you need a lot more details.
I am perfectly satisfied that I know what Ron did. If you feel like you need to know that stuff then YOU'LL feel like you'll never know what Ron did. I don't know how often he ran with his dogs or how fast he went when his wife biked along side him but I still am satisfied that I know what he did.
Don't know why you have to get defensive, I appreciate the info you're giving us, I'm a big fan of the guy and read his book more than once. You seem to have known him personally.
The point was that I did not believe he got down to 4:30 per mile on a regular basis on his afternoon hour run as has been stated online more than on one occasion, and that has been confirmed by you. You said he ran by feel, so he pushed it when he felt like it. I can see someone running that fast for a run when really fit and maybe being challenged (by Clayton perhaps), but not multiple times a week like was mentioned, that would be unsustainable for anyone, especially when racing as frequently as he did.
I am perfectly satisfied that I know what Ron did. If you feel like you need to know that stuff then YOU'LL feel like you'll never know what Ron did. I don't know how often he ran with his dogs or how fast he went when his wife biked along side him but I still am satisfied that I know what he did.
Don't know why you have to get defensive, I appreciate the info you're giving us, I'm a big fan of the guy and read his book more than once. You seem to have known him personally.
The point was that I did not believe he got down to 4:30 per mile on a regular basis on his afternoon hour run as has been stated online more than on one occasion, and that has been confirmed by you. You said he ran by feel, so he pushed it when he felt like it. I can see someone running that fast for a run when really fit and maybe being challenged (by Clayton perhaps), but not multiple times a week like was mentioned, that would be unsustainable for anyone, especially when racing as frequently as he did.
I'm not sure what looks defensive in any of the stuff I've written here lately though I do find the guy who keeps telling me I've said I know what Ron did but that I really don't because I don't know splits, heart rates, thresholds touched on, etc. pretty annoying.
But a general problem that I see now is how so many of us underestimate what people can handle productively. I see this here often when we discuss what pretty fast people once did and I think you're doing that when you talk about the hard time you have believing that Ron got to 4:30 pace on a regular basis. As I've said, I know he didn't do that on every run and I can't say how often it happened or for how many miles he did it. I doubt he could tell you that exactly either. But I do think you're overestimating how hard 4:30 pace is for someone who could do 4:10s for two miles.
One of the things about Ron that I was impressed by was that he was ALWAYS fit. He didn't believe in peaking. He thought that today's run made you the tiniest bit fitter for tomorrow's run which made you the tiniest bit fitter for the day after that's run. So I have an easier time believing that he did the 4:30s fairly routinely. If you have a hard time believing he could do that I don't really care and maybe you're right. But I will say that I knew him and evidently you did not but even so, maybe after so many years Ron himself "remembered" doing more of those 4:30s than he actually did. He did not keep a diary and given that he only occasionally checked his pace that could be the case.
Don't know why you have to get defensive, I appreciate the info you're giving us, I'm a big fan of the guy and read his book more than once. You seem to have known him personally.
The point was that I did not believe he got down to 4:30 per mile on a regular basis on his afternoon hour run as has been stated online more than on one occasion, and that has been confirmed by you. You said he ran by feel, so he pushed it when he felt like it. I can see someone running that fast for a run when really fit and maybe being challenged (by Clayton perhaps), but not multiple times a week like was mentioned, that would be unsustainable for anyone, especially when racing as frequently as he did.
I'm not sure what looks defensive in any of the stuff I've written here lately though I do find the guy who keeps telling me I've said I know what Ron did but that I really don't because I don't know splits, heart rates, thresholds touched on, etc. pretty annoying.
But a general problem that I see now is how so many of us underestimate what people can handle productively. I see this here often when we discuss what pretty fast people once did and I think you're doing that when you talk about the hard time you have believing that Ron got to 4:30 pace on a regular basis. As I've said, I know he didn't do that on every run and I can't say how often it happened or for how many miles he did it. I doubt he could tell you that exactly either. But I do think you're overestimating how hard 4:30 pace is for someone who could do 4:10s for two miles.
One of the things about Ron that I was impressed by was that he was ALWAYS fit. He didn't believe in peaking. He thought that today's run made you the tiniest bit fitter for tomorrow's run which made you the tiniest bit fitter for the day after that's run. So I have an easier time believing that he did the 4:30s fairly routinely. If you have a hard time believing he could do that I don't really care and maybe you're right. But I will say that I knew him and evidently you did not but even so, maybe after so many years Ron himself "remembered" doing more of those 4:30s than he actually did. He did not keep a diary and given that he only occasionally checked his pace that could be the case.
Fair enough, I appreciate the insight nonetheless, I think we can all agree that his training method was unique for the time and it caused him to annihilate WRs. I guess that's what makes the details so interesting and so many people interested in finding it out.
I'm not sure what looks defensive in any of the stuff I've written here lately though I do find the guy who keeps telling me I've said I know what Ron did but that I really don't because I don't know splits, heart rates, thresholds touched on, etc. pretty annoying.
But a general problem that I see now is how so many of us underestimate what people can handle productively. I see this here often when we discuss what pretty fast people once did and I think you're doing that when you talk about the hard time you have believing that Ron got to 4:30 pace on a regular basis. As I've said, I know he didn't do that on every run and I can't say how often it happened or for how many miles he did it. I doubt he could tell you that exactly either. But I do think you're overestimating how hard 4:30 pace is for someone who could do 4:10s for two miles.
One of the things about Ron that I was impressed by was that he was ALWAYS fit. He didn't believe in peaking. He thought that today's run made you the tiniest bit fitter for tomorrow's run which made you the tiniest bit fitter for the day after that's run. So I have an easier time believing that he did the 4:30s fairly routinely. If you have a hard time believing he could do that I don't really care and maybe you're right. But I will say that I knew him and evidently you did not but even so, maybe after so many years Ron himself "remembered" doing more of those 4:30s than he actually did. He did not keep a diary and given that he only occasionally checked his pace that could be the case.
Fair enough, I appreciate the insight nonetheless, I think we can all agree that his training method was unique for the time and it caused him to annihilate WRs. I guess that's what makes the details so interesting and so many people interested in finding it out.
One of the things about Ron that intrigued me was that he did so well without interval work. I never liked intervals and thought they weren't doing much for me. But intervals were and are so ubiquitous that it was hard not to believe you had to do them so the success Ron and a handful of others who didn't do them had was very appealing to me. The group he trained with actually did do lots of intervals at one time. They were imitating Zatopek but over time what they did evolved to good paced steady runs.
Clarke ran a lot of intervals in the first part of his career when he was coached by Franz Stampfl but said he became dissatisfied with that sort of work when he stopped improving by doing it. In his second career he did steady runs pretty much exclusively starting with an easy pace but going faster as the run went on. A normal run lasted about an hour and by the later bits he was often close to 4:30 mile pace. You also should know that he raced almost every week at anything from a half mile to ten miles. I have a hard time believing Beardsley did not run intervals. He trained with Bill Squires' guys and they did intervals a couple times a week.
I think a lot of these didn’t do track intervals but did things like 2 hard/1 easy of the roads. Of a 15 miler with 3 min surges every 10 mins
It is easy to google Beardsley and see his training plan. It had plenty of things like 8x880.
Not a ton on Clarke () but several sources have talked about him doing straights and bends workouts. And honestly the rest sounds pretty much like modern training. How many other people are pushing doing 50-60mins of work in that LT1/LT2 zone. Doing it as intervals gives you a bit more control but the net training effect is going to be very similiar. I would love to see GPS logs of his training to see exactly what he was doing(how accurate were those run measurements) but we know these days you don’t need a ton of high intensity work. His races probably have plenty of stimulus for a 5k/10k guy.
I think this approach is similar to Mark Nenow, he tried intervals and discarded them. Hard hill runs and raced himself in to shape.
I think a lot of these didn’t do track intervals but did things like 2 hard/1 easy of the roads. Of a 15 miler with 3 min surges every 10 mins
It is easy to google Beardsley and see his training plan. It had plenty of things like 8x880.
Not a ton on Clarke () but several sources have talked about him doing straights and bends workouts. And honestly the rest sounds pretty much like modern training. How many other people are pushing doing 50-60mins of work in that LT1/LT2 zone. Doing it as intervals gives you a bit more control but the net training effect is going to be very similiar. I would love to see GPS logs of his training to see exactly what he was doing(how accurate were those run measurements) but we know these days you don’t need a ton of high intensity work. His races probably have plenty of stimulus for a 5k/10k guy.
I think this approach is similar to Mark Nenow, he tried intervals and discarded them. Hard hill runs and raced himself in to shape.
I'm stuck around 18 flat for 5k. I was thinking of dropping interval workouts and doing two 20 minute tempo runs a week at threshold pace, with strides. Pace would be 6:10-15.
Could this work considering there would be no faster running, except for the strides?