The denialism that is rampant in this place is that doping in the sport is confined to second-tier Kenyans. It isnt. It's present in all countries at the top of the sport, but some more than others. WADA puts running with bodybuilding, weightlifting and cycling for risk of doping. None of them are clean sports.
Wow, now you are actually turning into a Jeff Tallon style doping apologist for Kenyans.
For my part, I believe Kenya dopes worse than others because there have been over 400 Kenyan distance doping busts, with new ones appearing every week, compared to a handful in the West over the last couple of decades, despite much better testing. Add to that, incentives to dope are many orders of magnitude greater due to poverty, as well as less of a taboo to dope given the far greater endemic corruption in African societies (which also makes it easier to dope and cover it up). Add to that less effective testing, and several documentaries exposing the ease with which EPO can be obtained in East Africa, even prescription free at high-street pharmacies.
Yes, you can claim that 'everybody dopes', and that the New Zealand government is running a state-sponsored doping program and feeding 12 year olds sarms and steroids, and that we have our heads in the sand and refuse to see it, just as somebody can claim the Earth is flat, or there is a race of super-intelligent octupusses living on the moon, and that we're all too stupid to see the obvious.
And now your comment is just really silly. Your head really is in the sand. Also im not a doping apologist for kenyans. Armstrong never once hinted at state sponsored doping in new zealand,octopuses on the moon,or the earth is flat.......thats all you
Wow, now you are actually turning into a Jeff Tallon style doping apologist for Kenyans.
For my part, I believe Kenya dopes worse than others because there have been over 400 Kenyan distance doping busts, with new ones appearing every week, compared to a handful in the West over the last couple of decades, despite much better testing. Add to that, incentives to dope are many orders of magnitude greater due to poverty, as well as less of a taboo to dope given the far greater endemic corruption in African societies (which also makes it easier to dope and cover it up). Add to that less effective testing, and several documentaries exposing the ease with which EPO can be obtained in East Africa, even prescription free at high-street pharmacies.
Yes, you can claim that 'everybody dopes', and that the New Zealand government is running a state-sponsored doping program and feeding 12 year olds sarms and steroids, and that we have our heads in the sand and refuse to see it, just as somebody can claim the Earth is flat, or there is a race of super-intelligent octupusses living on the moon, and that we're all too stupid to see the obvious.
And now your comment is just really silly. Your head really is in the sand. Also im not a doping apologist for kenyans. Armstrong never once hinted at state sponsored doping in new zealand,octopuses on the moon,or the earth is flat.......thats all you
Yes, you effectively are. When you pop up on every thread concerning yet another Kenyan bust, claiming "everybody dopes!", then you are telling everybody that the doping problem in Kenya is insignificant (please don't now say that you never said the doping problem in Kenya is insignificant). Kenyan doping apologists here like Hoady and ThoughtsLeader often make the argument that doping is just as prevalent elsewhere, but their anti-doping is simply catching more people.
Your claim - "everybody in New Zealand dopes", when there have been practically no busts or any evidence of doping among New Zealand athletes, is very much same as somebody claiming - "there are octupusses living on the moon - you're crazy if you think octupusses only live in the sea!".
Trying to simplify it even further - your claims lack any evidence, and you don't even provide any evidence. We have moutains of evidence that Kenyans dope almost universally. Just as we have mountains of evidence octupusses live in the sea, and zero evidence that octupusses live on the moon.
There have been quite a few Kenyan positives for this ingredient. I would not be surprised if some of them were for skin conditions because there are a lot of topical tropical diseases, if you will, out there. I recall these being very common in a neighboring country.
The fact that Kenya hasn’t been banned has to do with a skin condition, namely the softball treatment most athletes with a high melanin content receive for doping, despiye silly claims to the opposite and cries of oppression and of course racism to boot.
I understood that the 2:07 performance was a relevant part of the discussion, and that it would be appropriate to continue the performance part of that discussion.
Now, you're just being disingenuous.
I'll be a more specific. What is your perception of what Covett is saying?
Disingenuous?
My perception is that Coevett is saying that "2:07 marathoner Brian Kipsang" is somehow connected to the subject of "Another Kenyan banned".
I understood that the 2:07 performance was a relevant part of the discussion, and that it would be appropriate to continue the performance part of that discussion.
Actually I believe Coevett is incredulous that a 2:07 marathoner needs to dope with some non factor low level acne cream. If it was really staged he would have just went for nandrolone, EPO or testosterone. Why acne cream? Doesn’t make sense here. As a doping apologist, please let us know your stance.
My stance on what? I think I made it clear earlier, when I said "I'm mostly wondering what the performance potential would be for a healthy marathon runner to take Triamcinolone Acetonide." I don't know if he took acne cream. The presence would make sense if he were treating an injury or condition. Looks like triamcinolone acetonide comes in many forms and has many uses. For example, it is in Nasacort and relieves relieve nasal allergy congestion, sneezing, runny nose, and itchy nose. In the USA, it is available over-the-counter without a prescription. To know more about why and how he took it, we would need more information.
I never apologize for the presence of triamcinolone acetonide, even if he were treating an injury or condition. But I am interested in quality of performances.
Why would you say "he would have just went for nandrolone, EPO or testosterone"? Why does that make more sense to you?
This post was edited 7 minutes after it was posted.
My stance on what? I think I made it clear earlier, when I said "I'm mostly wondering what the performance potential would be for a healthy marathon runner to take Triamcinolone Acetonide." I don't know if he took acne cream. The presence would make sense if he were treating an injury or condition. Looks like triamcinolone acetonide comes in many forms and has many uses. For example, it is in Nasacort and relieves relieve nasal allergy congestion, sneezing, runny nose, and itchy nose. In the USA, it is available over-the-counter without a prescription. To know more about why and how he took it, we would need more information.
I never apologize for the presence of triamcinolone acetonide, even if he were treating an injury or condition. But I am interested in quality of performances.
Why would you say "he would have just went for nandrolone, EPO or testosterone"? Why does that make more sense to you?
David Millar said that when he took it, he'd never known anything like it in terms of how quickly and profoundly it changed his body composition. He said it was like magic.
Do you think Bradley Wiggins took it before every TDF because of his allergies, like he claimed?
These are healthy world class cyclists - and they both saw massive improvements with this particularly drug. There's your reasoning why a Kenyan cheat would cheat with this.
Our data suggest that there is a significant non-linear relationship between the central cardiovascular variables and VO2 during incremental exercise to VO2max. Furthermore, depending on the person, VO2max may be limited by c...
The top runners from Kenya and other countries could be using something else to avoid detection. My guess is a HIF stabilizer and a metabolic modulator. There's also a 2025 WADA list of watched substances that appear to be legal.
David Millar said that when he took it, he'd never known anything like it in terms of how quickly and profoundly it changed his body composition. He said it was like magic.
Do you think Bradley Wiggins took it before every TDF because of his allergies, like he claimed?
These are healthy world class cyclists - and they both saw massive improvements with this particularly drug. There's your reasoning why a Kenyan cheat would cheat with this.
Maybe that helps explain why "a Kenyan cheat would cheat with this". But that was not my question. I'm mostly wondering what the performance enhancement potential would be for a healthy marathon runner to take Triamcinolone Acetonide. Did these changes in body composition make David Millar and Bradley Wiggens run faster marathons?
Note that WADA experts who look at these things annually aren't all that convinced by athlete testimonies like David Millar's. Triamcinolone acetonide is WADA legal out of competition, and also WADA legal in competition in some cases, such as topical and therapeutic use. It has also been available since 1958 and is available OTC in the USA without a prescription.
The top runners from Kenya and other countries could be using something else to avoid detection. My guess is a HIF stabilizer and a metabolic modulator. There's also a 2025 WADA list of watched substances that appear to be legal.
Appealing to what you don't see is just a way of letting your imagination run wild.
If it is about what we don't see, maybe the top runners from Kenya and other countries could also not be using anything at all. No HIF stabilizers and no metabolic modulators and no EPO and no blood transfusions and no steroids. Maybe most top athletes are simply reaping the benefits of good old fashioned training, often at altitude, while being lucky enough to avoid injuries.
The denialism that is rampant in this place is that doping in the sport is confined to second-tier Kenyans. It isnt. It's present in all countries at the top of the sport, but some more than others. WADA puts running with bodybuilding, weightlifting and cycling for risk of doping. None of them are clean sports.
Good point. But I think virtually everyone agrees doping is "present" among all athletes, regardless of level of talent and origin. Where is this rampant denial you allege?
This quote about "risk of doping" you allege comes from WADA doesn't account for the number of samples tested. For example, according to WADA in 2019, bodybuilding has more AAFs and ADRVs than athletics, with almost 26x fewer samples tested. When looking at AAFs and ADRVs as a percentage of samples tested, weightlifting is about twice as dirty as athletics and cycling, and bodybuilding is about 30x. (Source: WADA 2019 ADRV report).
Cherrypicked stats, as usual. The main point that WADA makes is that T and F is amongst a bunch of dirty sports when it comes to doping.
The denialism that is rampant in this place is that doping in the sport is confined to second-tier Kenyans. It isnt. It's present in all countries at the top of the sport, but some more than others. WADA puts running with bodybuilding, weightlifting and cycling for risk of doping. None of them are clean sports.
Wow, now you are actually turning into a Jeff Tallon style doping apologist for Kenyans.
For my part, I believe Kenya dopes worse than others because there have been over 400 Kenyan distance doping busts, with new ones appearing every week, compared to a handful in the West over the last couple of decades, despite much better testing. Add to that, incentives to dope are many orders of magnitude greater due to poverty, as well as less of a taboo to dope given the far greater endemic corruption in African societies (which also makes it easier to dope and cover it up). Add to that less effective testing, and several documentaries exposing the ease with which EPO can be obtained in East Africa, even prescription free at high-street pharmacies.
Yes, you can claim that 'everybody dopes', and that the New Zealand government is running a state-sponsored doping program and feeding 12 year olds sarms and steroids, and that we have our heads in the sand and refuse to see it, just as somebody can claim the Earth is flat, or there is a race of super-intelligent octupusses living on the moon, and that we're all too stupid to see the obvious.
I am not saying what you think, that all nations dope like the worst of them do - they don't. I am saying what the experts tell us, that doping is present in all sports at the top in all countries. Some countries and some sports are worse than others but doping will be found everywhere today.
And now your comment is just really silly. Your head really is in the sand. Also im not a doping apologist for kenyans. Armstrong never once hinted at state sponsored doping in new zealand,octopuses on the moon,or the earth is flat.......thats all you
Yes, you effectively are. When you pop up on every thread concerning yet another Kenyan bust, claiming "everybody dopes!", then you are telling everybody that the doping problem in Kenya is insignificant (please don't now say that you never said the doping problem in Kenya is insignificant). Kenyan doping apologists here like Hoady and ThoughtsLeader often make the argument that doping is just as prevalent elsewhere, but their anti-doping is simply catching more people.
Your claim - "everybody in New Zealand dopes", when there have been practically no busts or any evidence of doping among New Zealand athletes, is very much same as somebody claiming - "there are octupusses living on the moon - you're crazy if you think octupusses only live in the sea!".
Trying to simplify it even further - your claims lack any evidence, and you don't even provide any evidence. We have moutains of evidence that Kenyans dope almost universally. Just as we have mountains of evidence octupusses live in the sea, and zero evidence that octupusses live on the moon.
I never once said everyone in new zealand dopes. Ive never mentioned new zealand at all. Youve gone really weird ,even for you. Also i never said the kenyan doping problem is insignificant. Woops,you told me not to say that.Oh well,too bad. I said it. Theyre all on something there. Its called mass doping,and its part of their running culture. . Youre the one obsessed with kenyans,not me. Every time a kenyan gets popped,you lick your lips,rub your hands together with glee,and post about it.
Yes, you effectively are. When you pop up on every thread concerning yet another Kenyan bust, claiming "everybody dopes!", then you are telling everybody that the doping problem in Kenya is insignificant (please don't now say that you never said the doping problem in Kenya is insignificant). Kenyan doping apologists here like Hoady and ThoughtsLeader often make the argument that doping is just as prevalent elsewhere, but their anti-doping is simply catching more people.
Your claim - "everybody in New Zealand dopes", when there have been practically no busts or any evidence of doping among New Zealand athletes, is very much same as somebody claiming - "there are octupusses living on the moon - you're crazy if you think octupusses only live in the sea!".
Trying to simplify it even further - your claims lack any evidence, and you don't even provide any evidence. We have moutains of evidence that Kenyans dope almost universally. Just as we have mountains of evidence octupusses live in the sea, and zero evidence that octupusses live on the moon.
I never once said everyone in new zealand dopes. Ive never mentioned new zealand at all. Youve gone really weird ,even for you. Also i never said the kenyan doping problem is insignificant. Woops,you told me not to say that.Oh well,too bad. I said it. Theyre all on something there. Its called mass doping,and its part of their running culture. . Youre the one obsessed with kenyans,not me. Every time a kenyan gets popped,you lick your lips,rub your hands together with glee,and post about it.
I might add to that, the fact that Kenyans flagrantly dope should not blind us to the reality that the practice is universal.
I never once said everyone in new zealand dopes. Ive never mentioned new zealand at all. Youve gone really weird ,even for you. Also i never said the kenyan doping problem is insignificant. Woops,you told me not to say that.Oh well,too bad. I said it. Theyre all on something there. Its called mass doping,and its part of their running culture. . Youre the one obsessed with kenyans,not me. Every time a kenyan gets popped,you lick your lips,rub your hands together with glee,and post about it.
I might add to that, the fact that Kenyans flagrantly dope should not blind us to the reality that the practice is universal.
There are dopers everywhere, but that doesn’t mean everyone dopes. Unless one is in Kenya and likely Ethiopia as well. People who blindly believe Africans to be childlike in their honesty, people who not even take an aspirin, those people need to actually visit Africa. The Africans are generally cutthroat in most activities and will do anything to cut corners and get over on the next guy. That’s simply a fact.
The top runners from Kenya and other countries could be using something else to avoid detection. My guess is a HIF stabilizer and a metabolic modulator. There's also a 2025 WADA list of watched substances that appear to be legal.
Just another example of why the COUNTRY of KENYA should be banned permanently.
Note that Triamcinolone Acetonide is permitted out-of-competition, and permitted in-competition when used topically, or for therapeutic purposes.
I don't understand this. Surely if it's permitted when used for therapeutic purposes you could always say it was for therapeutic purposes?!
I think you always can, but it has to make sense if you want to get away with it. You might need to declare it on your doping control form beforehand and have an approved TUE. None of these Armstrong backdated prescriptions games.
WADA Prohibited List wrote:
Note:
Other routes of administration (including inhaled, and topical: dental-intracanal, dermal, intranasal, ophthalmological, otic and perianal) are not prohibited when used within the manufacturer’s licensed doses and therapeutic indications
