Can't edit this post for some reason but I just want to emphasize how absurd Chebet's 5000m finish was. The race was essentially a progression run where every 1k was faster than the last. The first 2k were more or less at 15 minute 5k pace. The last 3k was 8:24 (14 min flat 5k pace). However the reason the last 3k was so fast is mostly because of the last 1k to 1500. Chebet's last 1k of 2:33.5 is the fastest last km in the history of the event, as far as I know. And this was in the context of a 8:24 3k, which makes it even more absurd and a 57.5 last lap, indicating she could have run the last 3k and 1k even faster with a more even pace. She ran what was essentially a tactical 3k race against 1500m world record holder Kipyegon (3:49.04 shape) and defeated her easily by over a second. This performance was absolutely mind bogglingly good and probably the best 5000m RACE performance of all time by a woman.
I'm back. Before I respond to the post you asked me to address, I want to revisit this one. You did very well at describing how amazing Chebet ran in her Olympic 5,000m race. You opined that it was "probably" the best race performance of all time in that event. The key word there is "probably". It's highly debatable what is the best women's 5,000m championship racing performance of all time. I'd love to see a thread on that topic because I don't know the answer, but I can identify at least two others that should be considered:
2015 world championships - After a first 2k that was very similar to this year's Olympic final (6:06 in 2015, 6:05 this year), Almaz Ayana ran the final 3k in 8:19 without super shoes to finish the race in a world championship record 14:26. She won that race by more than 17 seconds, absolutely destroying peak Genzebe Dibaba (that was the year Dibaba ran 3:50 and 14:15) and everyone else.
2016 Olympics - Vivian Cheruiyot outclassed Ayana, Obiri, and everyone else. After a faster opening 2k (6:00) than we saw this year or in 2015, Cheruiyot ran her final 3k in 8:24 without super shoes to win in a still-standing Olympic record of 14:26, more than 3 seconds faster than Obiri and 7 seconds faster than Ayana in third.
As I said, the best women's 5,000m championship racing performance of all time is highly debatable. You know what's not debatable? The best women's 400m hurdles championship racing performance of all time. It's unquestionably Sydney's.
I had no idea Ayana's last 3k was so fast. I just went back and watched the race and it was amazing. Where did you find the specific splits for these races?
I'd love to see one of today's stars try to start their kick from that far out. Every championship distance race seems to be tactical these days. Gidey was the only one who tried to start pushing from a distance and now she's gone.
On Ayana, I'll say she was likely doped up out of her mind, but that's speculative and doesn't negate your point. However, I would personally put Chebet's performance above this one because of how fast her last km and lap were. I doubt Ayana could've dropped a 57 second last lap.
I still disagree with some of what you've said, such as using the points table to establish competitiveness, but you've convinced me that SML is a deserving recipient of track AOY. Her relay split being your most significant point in my eyes. I think that Beatrice would've been deserving of track AOY too, though.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
My assertion that the hurdles are less competitive is based on the fact that a lot fewer people really even try the event and put effort into developing the technique. The talent funnel for open running events is just a lot wider.
Go to any HS team and the fastest guy won't be running hurdles. We will never know if he could be a great hurdler because because he will only ever compete in the open sprints and that's where the coach wants him.
Thanks for answering my question. So your assertion about Sydney's quality of competition isn't based on any analysis of her actual competitors. Do you not see how that's faulty logic?
My argument is based on statistical probability. The larger the sample the more likely that the most talented individuals in the universe, in this case the world, will filter through.
We can do an analysis of downhill skiers to determine what makes the top ones better but since it is such a small
Thanks for answering my question. So your assertion about Sydney's quality of competition isn't based on any analysis of her actual competitors. Do you not see how that's faulty logic?
My argument is based on statistical probability. The larger the sample the more likely that the most talented individuals in the universe, in this case the world, will filter through.
We can do an analysis of downhill skiers to determine what makes the top ones better but since it is such a small
Oops..hit send by accident.
small sample there are likely a lot of people with as much or greater talent that will never take up the sport.
I had no idea Ayana's last 3k was so fast. I just went back and watched the race and it was amazing. Where did you find the specific splits for these races?
I'd love to see one of today's stars try to start their kick from that far out. Every championship distance race seems to be tactical these days. Gidey was the only one who tried to start pushing from a distance and now she's gone.
On Ayana, I'll say she was likely doped up out of her mind, but that's speculative and doesn't negate your point. However, I would personally put Chebet's performance above this one because of how fast her last km and lap were. I doubt Ayana could've dropped a 57 second last lap.
I still disagree with some of what you've said, such as using the points table to establish competitiveness, but you've convinced me that SML is a deserving recipient of track AOY. Her relay split being your most significant point in my eyes. I think that Beatrice would've been deserving of track AOY too, though.
Thank you! I'm glad we can agree that both Sydney and Chebet are deserving candidates.
I got the splits from the World Athletics time tables and Let's Run's excellent race recaps.
I'm back. Before I respond to the post you asked me to address, I want to revisit this one. You did very well at describing how amazing Chebet ran in her Olympic 5,000m race. You opined that it was "probably" the best race performance of all time in that event. The key word there is "probably". It's highly debatable what is the best women's 5,000m championship racing performance of all time. I'd love to see a thread on that topic because I don't know the answer, but I can identify at least two others that should be considered:
2015 world championships - After a first 2k that was very similar to this year's Olympic final (6:06 in 2015, 6:05 this year), Almaz Ayana ran the final 3k in 8:19 without super shoes to finish the race in a world championship record 14:26. She won that race by more than 17 seconds, absolutely destroying peak Genzebe Dibaba (that was the year Dibaba ran 3:50 and 14:15) and everyone else.
2016 Olympics - Vivian Cheruiyot outclassed Ayana, Obiri, and everyone else. After a faster opening 2k (6:00) than we saw this year or in 2015, Cheruiyot ran her final 3k in 8:24 without super shoes to win in a still-standing Olympic record of 14:26, more than 3 seconds faster than Obiri and 7 seconds faster than Ayana in third.
As I said, the best women's 5,000m championship racing performance of all time is highly debatable. You know what's not debatable? The best women's 400m hurdles championship racing performance of all time. It's unquestionably Sydney's.
I had no idea Ayana's last 3k was so fast. I just went back and watched the race and it was amazing. Where did you find the specific splits for these races?
I'd love to see one of today's stars try to start their kick from that far out. Every championship distance race seems to be tactical these days. Gidey was the only one who tried to start pushing from a distance and now she's gone.
On Ayana, I'll say she was likely doped up out of her mind, but that's speculative and doesn't negate your point. However, I would personally put Chebet's performance above this one because of how fast her last km and lap were. I doubt Ayana could've dropped a 57 second last lap.
I still disagree with some of what you've said, such as using the points table to establish competitiveness, but you've convinced me that SML is a deserving recipient of track AOY. Her relay split being your most significant point in my eyes. I think that Beatrice would've been deserving of track AOY too, though.
Looking at Cheruiyot's performance (65s last lap and 2:47 last km, 8:24 final 3k) it seems obvious that Chebet's performance was far more impressive. Closing an 8:24 3k with a 2:33.5 km and 57.5s last lap indicates you can go a LOT faster than 8:24 with even pacing. Finishing in 2:47 and 65s says that you were all out the entirety of the last 3k, or close to it. The women's 5k race this year has such a fast finish that you could go as far out as 3k and still have a respectable split, but it really was not a 3k race in the way the 2015 and 2016 5ks were. If I had to throw out a wild guess, Chebet and Kipyegon could have finished the race in 8:12-8:15, maybe faster, if it had been. Chebet's performance is clearly #1. 400m races are inherently going to be all out from the gun, so it's easy to just look at the finishing time to determine how good of a performance it was. So saying that it's more certain that Syndey had the greatest performance ever compared to Chebet doesn't carry much weight in this debate imo
please excuse typos im writing these responses on my phone
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
My argument is based on statistical probability. The larger the sample the more likely that the most talented individuals in the universe, in this case the world, will filter through.
We can do an analysis of downhill skiers to determine what makes the top ones better but since it is such a small
Oops..hit send by accident.
small sample there are likely a lot of people with as much or greater talent that will never take up the sport.
I'm not so sure about that. At the youth level, track is very popular. In the US, where fast 400m high school runners are a dime a dozen, there is plenty of incentive and opportunity for those athletes to give the hurdles a try. Coaches looking to maximize their team points would be wise to see what their athletes could do in the hurdles. My coach did this. His philosophy was that good 300m hurdlers were the most valuable athletes to have on a team because they could give the team points in the hurdles, the 200, the 400, the relays, and maybe even the 800, depending on need.
I also think that people are drawn to sports and events that interest them and that are a good match for them. It's important to recognize that success at the highest levels of athletics isn't just based on physical talent. It's also based on drive, work ethic, commitment, etc. Most people wouldn't find training for the 400m hurdles to be fun. It's a grueling event that requires a certain disposition. I believe the people who have both the talent and the disposition for it are doing it.
small sample there are likely a lot of people with as much or greater talent that will never take up the sport.
I'm not so sure about that. At the youth level, track is very popular. In the US, where fast 400m high school runners are a dime a dozen, there is plenty of incentive and opportunity for those athletes to give the hurdles a try. Coaches looking to maximize their team points would be wise to see what their athletes could do in the hurdles. My coach did this. His philosophy was that good 300m hurdlers were the most valuable athletes to have on a team because they could give the team points in the hurdles, the 200, the 400, the relays, and maybe even the 800, depending on need.
I also think that people are drawn to sports and events that interest them and that are a good match for them. It's important to recognize that success at the highest levels of athletics isn't just based on physical talent. It's also based on drive, work ethic, commitment, etc. Most people wouldn't find training for the 400m hurdles to be fun. It's a grueling event that requires a certain disposition. I believe the people who have both the talent and the disposition for it are doing it.
I certainly can agree with your last point. No athlete gets to be the best in their sport without that combination of focus and commitment, along with the innate physical abilities that enable them to develop particular skills.
We can disagree about trivial points like track AoY but Sydney and Beatrice are both incredible athletes and I look forward to watching both of them compete.
The awards in conjunction with each other make no sense. If Hassan is the world athlete of the year then seemingly Chebet should earn credit for easily defeating her twice en route to gold medals. And that doesn't even factor the presence of Kipyegon in the 5000. It was Kipyegon's first major defeat since 2015 when she was fully fit. The 2019 loss to Hassan in the Doha 1500 was Kipyegon off maternity leave.
World Athletics didn't fear shunning Chebet. That's what it comes down to. She didn't have the public name recognition or overwhelming resume entering 2024.
Besides, these are banquets. That should never be overlooked. They pick the ones who will look best standing up there in a fancy gown or suit. And I'm convinced they helped Hassan with her selection. In 2021 she won huge awards and was doing remote taped thank you messages while wearing sweats and half asleep on an unmade bed.
Just want to add in if sifan focused on 1-2 championship events dating back to 2019 I have to think she'd beat faith majority of the time.
Regarding this whole thread Chebet became my favorite woman runner this year lol
I had no idea Ayana's last 3k was so fast. I just went back and watched the race and it was amazing. Where did you find the specific splits for these races?
I'd love to see one of today's stars try to start their kick from that far out. Every championship distance race seems to be tactical these days. Gidey was the only one who tried to start pushing from a distance and now she's gone.
On Ayana, I'll say she was likely doped up out of her mind, but that's speculative and doesn't negate your point. However, I would personally put Chebet's performance above this one because of how fast her last km and lap were. I doubt Ayana could've dropped a 57 second last lap.
I still disagree with some of what you've said, such as using the points table to establish competitiveness, but you've convinced me that SML is a deserving recipient of track AOY. Her relay split being your most significant point in my eyes. I think that Beatrice would've been deserving of track AOY too, though.
Looking at Cheruiyot's performance (65s last lap and 2:47 last km, 8:24 final 3k) it seems obvious that Chebet's performance was far more impressive. Closing an 8:24 3k with a 2:33.5 km and 57.5s last lap indicates you can go a LOT faster than 8:24 with even pacing. Finishing in 2:47 and 65s says that you were all out the entirety of the last 3k, or close to it. The women's 5k race this year has such a fast finish that you could go as far out as 3k and still have a respectable split, but it really was not a 3k race in the way the 2015 and 2016 5ks were. If I had to throw out a wild guess, Chebet and Kipyegon could have finished the race in 8:12-8:15, maybe faster, if it had been. Chebet's performance is clearly #1. 400m races are inherently going to be all out from the gun, so it's easy to just look at the finishing time to determine how good of a performance it was. So saying that it's more certain that Syndey had the greatest performance ever compared to Chebet doesn't carry much weight in this debate imo
please excuse typos im writing these responses on my phone
I respect your opinion that Chebet's win was more impressive than Ayana's and Cheruiyot's (if you're fascinated by fast finishes, I'd also recommend analyzing the championship victories by Tirunesh Dibaba and Meseret Defar). My point wasn't to say which 5,000m win was the best. It was just to say that it's debatable. After all, both Ayana and Cheruiyot won their races in faster times and with larger margins of victory than Chebet, and they did it without super shoes.
Your comment about going all out from the gun brings up another argument in favor of Sydney's 400m hurdles win being better than Chebet's 5,000m win: By your own admission, the first 2k of Chebet's race wasn't fast. So that means she wasn't running hard for 40 percent of the race! I just can't believe that someone who didn't run hard for 40 percent of their race had a better performance than someone who smashed a world record.
Sydney McLaughlin winning Track Athlete of the Year over Beatrice Chebet is absurd. Beatrice broke the 10,000m world record this year. She also defeated all time great Faith Kipyegon, who was in WR breaking form, to win the most stacked women’s 5,000m race in history. To top it off, she secured another gold in the 10,000m. Sydney McLaughlin’s achievements this year don’t come close to Beatrice’s. At best, McLaughlin was the third most impressive female track athlete, behind both Kipyegon (who reset the 1,500m WR and won her third consecutive Olympic gold) and Chebet. McLaughlin’s selection for this award frustrating. She is the most overrated athlete of our era. It’s disappointing to see athletes like Beatrice overlooked.
I think the problem is they look at every event being equal.
What Hassan did in the Olympics was far superior to Sydney M.
Chebet is better.
Kipyegon did more throughout the season and in the Olympics.
It would make no sense for a 400m athlete to learn hurdling technique just to compete against one athlete. Nothing is stopping Sydney from competing in the open 400.
I'm not arguing that Sydney's 400 WR is not remarkable. But it's still a niche event without the same level of competition so I don't think it deserves the same weight in AoY consideration. That's just my opinion and you have a different one so I will leave it at that.
Here's a question for you, since your comment about strength of competition keeps coming up, and you said there's better competition in the flat 400 than in the hurdles: What makes you think the 400m hurdles has weaker competition than the flat 400? The answer shouldn't be based on what hurdlers can run in the flat 400 (although Femke and other hurdlers have proven that they can run fast in the flat). The answer should be based on how fast they are *and* their skill in hurdling and managing their steps. That's what makes someone a good hurdler. When you say there is weaker competition in the hurdles, is that opinion based on expert analyses of people's hurdling techniques and steps?
The World Athletics scoring tables exist to enable us to compare different disciplines. Here are the top five event scores by athlete in the women's flat 400 this year, not including Sydney's #4 1256:
1280 (Paulino)
1265 (Naser)
1264 (Pryce)
1250 (Kaczmarek)
1243 (Adeleke)
Now here are the top five event scores by athlete in the women's 400m hurdles this year, not including Sydney's #1 1322 score:
1303 (Bol)
1273 (Cockrell)
1259 (Jones)
1252 (Clayton)
1243 (Little)
Based on scores, the competition is tougher in the hurdles. Not including Sydney, the top two athletes in the hurdles this year (i.e., Sydney's top challengers for gold) had higher event scores this year than the top two athletes in the flat. The average score of Sydney's top 5 competitors in the hurdles was 1266; the average of her top 5 competitors in the flat was 1260.
You forgot Bol's 400 flat score, 1272 and 2nd in that list behind Paulino
Here's a question for you, since your comment about strength of competition keeps coming up, and you said there's better competition in the flat 400 than in the hurdles: What makes you think the 400m hurdles has weaker competition than the flat 400? The answer shouldn't be based on what hurdlers can run in the flat 400 (although Femke and other hurdlers have proven that they can run fast in the flat). The answer should be based on how fast they are *and* their skill in hurdling and managing their steps. That's what makes someone a good hurdler. When you say there is weaker competition in the hurdles, is that opinion based on expert analyses of people's hurdling techniques and steps?
The World Athletics scoring tables exist to enable us to compare different disciplines. Here are the top five event scores by athlete in the women's flat 400 this year, not including Sydney's #4 1256:
1280 (Paulino)
1265 (Naser)
1264 (Pryce)
1250 (Kaczmarek)
1243 (Adeleke)
Now here are the top five event scores by athlete in the women's 400m hurdles this year, not including Sydney's #1 1322 score:
1303 (Bol)
1273 (Cockrell)
1259 (Jones)
1252 (Clayton)
1243 (Little)
Based on scores, the competition is tougher in the hurdles. Not including Sydney, the top two athletes in the hurdles this year (i.e., Sydney's top challengers for gold) had higher event scores this year than the top two athletes in the flat. The average score of Sydney's top 5 competitors in the hurdles was 1266; the average of her top 5 competitors in the flat was 1260.
You forgot Bol's 400 flat score, 1272 and 2nd in that list behind Paulino
Good catch, thanks. I got the top scores from looking at the fastest times, and I didn't notice that Bol had a 1272 based on her 49.17 being run indoors. My bad on that. Although Bol's 400 score probably shouldn't be listed for the purposes of the comparison I was making on the quality of competition in those two events, given that Bol doesn't run the flat 400 in outdoor global championships.
Looking at Cheruiyot's performance (65s last lap and 2:47 last km, 8:24 final 3k) it seems obvious that Chebet's performance was far more impressive. Closing an 8:24 3k with a 2:33.5 km and 57.5s last lap indicates you can go a LOT faster than 8:24 with even pacing. Finishing in 2:47 and 65s says that you were all out the entirety of the last 3k, or close to it. The women's 5k race this year has such a fast finish that you could go as far out as 3k and still have a respectable split, but it really was not a 3k race in the way the 2015 and 2016 5ks were. If I had to throw out a wild guess, Chebet and Kipyegon could have finished the race in 8:12-8:15, maybe faster, if it had been. Chebet's performance is clearly #1. 400m races are inherently going to be all out from the gun, so it's easy to just look at the finishing time to determine how good of a performance it was. So saying that it's more certain that Syndey had the greatest performance ever compared to Chebet doesn't carry much weight in this debate imo
please excuse typos im writing these responses on my phone
I respect your opinion that Chebet's win was more impressive than Ayana's and Cheruiyot's (if you're fascinated by fast finishes, I'd also recommend analyzing the championship victories by Tirunesh Dibaba and Meseret Defar). My point wasn't to say which 5,000m win was the best. It was just to say that it's debatable. After all, both Ayana and Cheruiyot won their races in faster times and with larger margins of victory than Chebet, and they did it without super shoes.
Your comment about going all out from the gun brings up another argument in favor of Sydney's 400m hurdles win being better than Chebet's 5,000m win: By your own admission, the first 2k of Chebet's race wasn't fast. So that means she wasn't running hard for 40 percent of the race! I just can't believe that someone who didn't run hard for 40 percent of their race had a better performance than someone who smashed a world record.
Cheruiyot's isn't even in the conversation after closer inspection. Her last 3k was more like 8:25-8:26, and she only won because Ayana was too tired from her 10k WR to repeat the performance she had in 2015. Imagine Chebet's race overlaid on Cheruiyot's: Chebet and Kipyegon 120 meters behind, then catching up and surpassing Cheruiyot in 2.5 minutes. Cheruiyot would look like a scrub. But Ayana's race is definitely in the convo, as is Kipyegon's WR where she raced Gidey and closed in 60.6. Hassan's Tokyo performance is up there, too, and the 14:11-14:12 races we saw before super shoes. We really do need a thread on just this question. Anyway, tactics are major part of 5000m racing. The point is to win, so this isn't a problem or point against Chebet's or anyone else's performance. If jogging the first 2k is the ideal strategy to win, then it's part of the ideal performance. Sydney may have run a WR in the Olympics, but Chebet did it prior, then followed it up with Olympic performances that were incredible. There's also a case to be made that we should include her repeat World Cross victory in the discussion. While the performance wasn't on the track, It's part of the overall excellence this track athlete displayed in 2024.
Cheruiyot's isn't even in the conversation after closer inspection. Her last 3k was more like 8:25-8:26, and she only won because Ayana was too tired from her 10k WR to repeat the performance she had in 2015. Imagine Chebet's race overlaid on Cheruiyot's: Chebet and Kipyegon 120 meters behind, then catching up and surpassing Cheruiyot in 2.5 minutes. Cheruiyot would look like a scrub. But Ayana's race is definitely in the convo, as is Kipyegon's WR where she raced Gidey and closed in 60.6. Hassan's Tokyo performance is up there, too, and the 14:11-14:12 races we saw before super shoes. We really do need a thread on just this question. Anyway, tactics are major part of 5000m racing. The point is to win, so this isn't a problem or point against Chebet's or anyone else's performance. If jogging the first 2k is the ideal strategy to win, then it's part of the ideal performance. Sydney may have run a WR in the Olympics, but Chebet did it prior, then followed it up with Olympic performances that were incredible. There's also a case to be made that we should include her repeat World Cross victory in the discussion. While the performance wasn't on the track, It's part of the overall excellence this track athlete displayed in 2024.
Cheruiyot remains in the conversation because she's still the Olympic record holder. Go ahead and overlay Chebet's race onto Cheruiyot's. You'll see Cheruiyot crossing the finish line 2 seconds ahead of Chebet. And remember Cheruiyot didn't have super shoes back then. She would have run at least 3-5 seconds faster with super shoes. So now instead of comparing Chebet's 14:28 to Cheruiyot's 14:26, it's more like comparing Chebet's 14:28 to Cheruiyot running ~14:22. Same goes for Ayana in 2015.
Yes, the point is to win, and Sydney won in a more dominant fashion than Chebet did. You can't argue against math. A 1.5 margin of victory is better than a 1.04 margin of victory.
You don't understand how great 50.37 is. It is the greatest women's world record on the track, measured by the percentage difference between the world record holder and the number 2 performer:
400m hurdles: 1.1%
400m: 0.8%
100m hurdles: 0.7%
5,000m: 0.6%
100m: 0.5%
1500m: 0.4%
10,000m: 0.4%
200m: 0.3%
800m: 0.1%
Steeple: 0.0%
Chebet's 5,000m win was awesome, but we've seen other women run faster in championship races without super shoes and win by larger margins. We've never seen a women's hurdler drop a 50.37 and win by 1.5.
Yes, Chebet broke the world record in the 10,000 before the Olympics, but she didn't even run the fastest 10k of the year! And you forget that Sydney broke the world record before the Olympics too. That performance was better than Chebet's world record, in both point value and percentage that it's better than the #2 performer (Sydney's 50.65 is 0.6% better than Bol's 50.95).
So we have:
Sydney's 50.37 with a 1.5 margin of victory > Chebet's 14:28 with a 1.04 margin of victory
Sydney's 47.71 relay leg (fastest relay leg in 40 years!) > Chebet winning a tactical 10,000m
Sydney's 50.65 WR > Chebet's 28:54 WR
Sydney wins.
No, Chebet's World XC victory doesn't count for the track AOY award. You can't just change the criteria because it suits you. If you have a problem with the criteria, take it up with World Athletics. Cross country only counts for the Out of Stadium category and the Overall award. The Overall award is the one Chebet should have won, not the track award.
I respect your opinion that Chebet's win was more impressive than Ayana's and Cheruiyot's (if you're fascinated by fast finishes, I'd also recommend analyzing the championship victories by Tirunesh Dibaba and Meseret Defar). My point wasn't to say which 5,000m win was the best. It was just to say that it's debatable. After all, both Ayana and Cheruiyot won their races in faster times and with larger margins of victory than Chebet, and they did it without super shoes.
Your comment about going all out from the gun brings up another argument in favor of Sydney's 400m hurdles win being better than Chebet's 5,000m win: By your own admission, the first 2k of Chebet's race wasn't fast. So that means she wasn't running hard for 40 percent of the race! I just can't believe that someone who didn't run hard for 40 percent of their race had a better performance than someone who smashed a world record.
Cheruiyot's isn't even in the conversation after closer inspection. Her last 3k was more like 8:25-8:26, and she only won because Ayana was too tired from her 10k WR to repeat the performance she had in 2015. Imagine Chebet's race overlaid on Cheruiyot's: Chebet and Kipyegon 120 meters behind, then catching up and surpassing Cheruiyot in 2.5 minutes. Cheruiyot would look like a scrub. But Ayana's race is definitely in the convo, as is Kipyegon's WR where she raced Gidey and closed in 60.6. Hassan's Tokyo performance is up there, too, and the 14:11-14:12 races we saw before super shoes. We really do need a thread on just this question. Anyway, tactics are major part of 5000m racing. The point is to win, so this isn't a problem or point against Chebet's or anyone else's performance. If jogging the first 2k is the ideal strategy to win, then it's part of the ideal performance. Sydney may have run a WR in the Olympics, but Chebet did it prior, then followed it up with Olympic performances that were incredible. There's also a case to be made that we should include her repeat World Cross victory in the discussion. While the performance wasn't on the track, It's part of the overall excellence this track athlete displayed in 2024.
And don't forget Chebet set a WR 5km road record on 12/31/2023, so technically not 2024. Yes, I know it doesn't count, but here is a summary of her accomplishments in a 9-month period, ending in September:
Set road 5k WR (last day of 2023) Won World XC with a dominant performance Smashed the 10000 WR by breaking through the 29-minute barrier Won the Olympic 5000/10000 double by defeating some of the best women runners in history DL Champion for 3000/5000 Won WA Athletics XC Tour Gold meeting by 27 seconds (Seville – 11/24)
So in that period she set WRs on the track, road, and won World XC and the Olympic distance double. For a distance runner that seems about as high a standard of excellence as can be achieved. She is equally as good on the track, road and XC course.
Cheruiyot's isn't even in the conversation after closer inspection. Her last 3k was more like 8:25-8:26, and she only won because Ayana was too tired from her 10k WR to repeat the performance she had in 2015. Imagine Chebet's race overlaid on Cheruiyot's: Chebet and Kipyegon 120 meters behind, then catching up and surpassing Cheruiyot in 2.5 minutes. Cheruiyot would look like a scrub. But Ayana's race is definitely in the convo, as is Kipyegon's WR where she raced Gidey and closed in 60.6. Hassan's Tokyo performance is up there, too, and the 14:11-14:12 races we saw before super shoes. We really do need a thread on just this question. Anyway, tactics are major part of 5000m racing. The point is to win, so this isn't a problem or point against Chebet's or anyone else's performance. If jogging the first 2k is the ideal strategy to win, then it's part of the ideal performance. Sydney may have run a WR in the Olympics, but Chebet did it prior, then followed it up with Olympic performances that were incredible. There's also a case to be made that we should include her repeat World Cross victory in the discussion. While the performance wasn't on the track, It's part of the overall excellence this track athlete displayed in 2024.
Cheruiyot remains in the conversation because she's still the Olympic record holder. Go ahead and overlay Chebet's race onto Cheruiyot's. You'll see Cheruiyot crossing the finish line 2 seconds ahead of Chebet. And remember Cheruiyot didn't have super shoes back then. She would have run at least 3-5 seconds faster with super shoes. So now instead of comparing Chebet's 14:28 to Cheruiyot's 14:26, it's more like comparing Chebet's 14:28 to Cheruiyot running ~14:22. Same goes for Ayana in 2015.
Yes, the point is to win, and Sydney won in a more dominant fashion than Chebet did. You can't argue against math. A 1.5 margin of victory is better than a 1.04 margin of victory.
You don't understand how great 50.37 is. It is the greatest women's world record on the track, measured by the percentage difference between the world record holder and the number 2 performer:
400m hurdles: 1.1%
400m: 0.8%
100m hurdles: 0.7%
5,000m: 0.6%
100m: 0.5%
1500m: 0.4%
10,000m: 0.4%
200m: 0.3%
800m: 0.1%
Steeple: 0.0%
Chebet's 5,000m win was awesome, but we've seen other women run faster in championship races without super shoes and win by larger margins. We've never seen a women's hurdler drop a 50.37 and win by 1.5.
Yes, Chebet broke the world record in the 10,000 before the Olympics, but she didn't even run the fastest 10k of the year! And you forget that Sydney broke the world record before the Olympics too. That performance was better than Chebet's world record, in both point value and percentage that it's better than the #2 performer (Sydney's 50.65 is 0.6% better than Bol's 50.95).
So we have:
Sydney's 50.37 with a 1.5 margin of victory > Chebet's 14:28 with a 1.04 margin of victory
Sydney's 47.71 relay leg (fastest relay leg in 40 years!) > Chebet winning a tactical 10,000m
Sydney's 50.65 WR > Chebet's 28:54 WR
Sydney wins.
No, Chebet's World XC victory doesn't count for the track AOY award. You can't just change the criteria because it suits you. If you have a problem with the criteria, take it up with World Athletics. Cross country only counts for the Out of Stadium category and the Overall award. The Overall award is the one Chebet should have won, not the track award.
I disagree with a lot of this. First of all, the percentage difference thing doesn't tell us anything useful for purposes of this convo. Using this method of ranking, the 800m WR is one of the weakest world records on the track. But we all know this is absurd. The 800m WR is one of the strongest WRs on that track - no one has approached it in decades. Yes, the person who ran the time was doping, but that doesn't negate the point: competition matters. Who exactly is Sydney competing against, contemporarily or from the past? No one to speak of, frankly. While her achievements are incredible, it is very hard to gauge just how good 50.37. In my opinion, this time is what you get when you have someone with exceptional open 400m ability, perhaps sub 48.5 potential, and combine it with great hurdling technique. What this time is not is a Koch level performance. I think that Miller-Oibo (sp?), Paulino, Sonya Richards Ross, etc., all could have run similar times in the 400h if they'd put their minds too it. On Cheryuiot's performance, I still don't think it is in the conversation for #1 women's 5k performance ever, but it might be in the top 5. You're right to say that Cheryuiot would have finished a couple seconds ahead of Chebet and Kipyegon, but that lead (in terms of finishing time - Chebet and Kipyegon wouldn've been about 16 seconds back at 4k, I think) would've been created in the first 3000m or so when the pace was very slow. This matters a lot when evaluating how strong each performance was. Super shoes do matter, but this raises a couple of points: (1) Cheruiyot and, almost certainly, Ayana were doping to a degree that Kipyegon and Chebet are not, and (2), we actually have great performances from the past to compare present day 5k performances to, which cannot be said for the 400h.
Cheruiyot remains in the conversation because she's still the Olympic record holder. Go ahead and overlay Chebet's race onto Cheruiyot's. You'll see Cheruiyot crossing the finish line 2 seconds ahead of Chebet. And remember Cheruiyot didn't have super shoes back then. She would have run at least 3-5 seconds faster with super shoes. So now instead of comparing Chebet's 14:28 to Cheruiyot's 14:26, it's more like comparing Chebet's 14:28 to Cheruiyot running ~14:22. Same goes for Ayana in 2015.
Yes, the point is to win, and Sydney won in a more dominant fashion than Chebet did. You can't argue against math. A 1.5 margin of victory is better than a 1.04 margin of victory.
You don't understand how great 50.37 is. It is the greatest women's world record on the track, measured by the percentage difference between the world record holder and the number 2 performer:
400m hurdles: 1.1%
400m: 0.8%
100m hurdles: 0.7%
5,000m: 0.6%
100m: 0.5%
1500m: 0.4%
10,000m: 0.4%
200m: 0.3%
800m: 0.1%
Steeple: 0.0%
Chebet's 5,000m win was awesome, but we've seen other women run faster in championship races without super shoes and win by larger margins. We've never seen a women's hurdler drop a 50.37 and win by 1.5.
Yes, Chebet broke the world record in the 10,000 before the Olympics, but she didn't even run the fastest 10k of the year! And you forget that Sydney broke the world record before the Olympics too. That performance was better than Chebet's world record, in both point value and percentage that it's better than the #2 performer (Sydney's 50.65 is 0.6% better than Bol's 50.95).
So we have:
Sydney's 50.37 with a 1.5 margin of victory > Chebet's 14:28 with a 1.04 margin of victory
Sydney's 47.71 relay leg (fastest relay leg in 40 years!) > Chebet winning a tactical 10,000m
Sydney's 50.65 WR > Chebet's 28:54 WR
Sydney wins.
No, Chebet's World XC victory doesn't count for the track AOY award. You can't just change the criteria because it suits you. If you have a problem with the criteria, take it up with World Athletics. Cross country only counts for the Out of Stadium category and the Overall award. The Overall award is the one Chebet should have won, not the track award.
I disagree with a lot of this. First of all, the percentage difference thing doesn't tell us anything useful for purposes of this convo. Using this method of ranking, the 800m WR is one of the weakest world records on the track. But we all know this is absurd. The 800m WR is one of the strongest WRs on that track - no one has approached it in decades. Yes, the person who ran the time was doping, but that doesn't negate the point: competition matters. Who exactly is Sydney competing against, contemporarily or from the past? No one to speak of, frankly. While her achievements are incredible, it is very hard to gauge just how good 50.37. In my opinion, this time is what you get when you have someone with exceptional open 400m ability, perhaps sub 48.5 potential, and combine it with great hurdling technique. What this time is not is a Koch level performance. I think that Miller-Oibo (sp?), Paulino, Sonya Richards Ross, etc., all could have run similar times in the 400h if they'd put their minds too it. On Cheryuiot's performance, I still don't think it is in the conversation for #1 women's 5k performance ever, but it might be in the top 5. You're right to say that Cheryuiot would have finished a couple seconds ahead of Chebet and Kipyegon, but that lead (in terms of finishing time - Chebet and Kipyegon wouldn've been about 16 seconds back at 4k, I think) would've been created in the first 3000m or so when the pace was very slow. This matters a lot when evaluating how strong each performance was. Super shoes do matter, but this raises a couple of points: (1) Cheruiyot and, almost certainly, Ayana were doping to a degree that Kipyegon and Chebet are not, and (2), we actually have great performances from the past to compare present day 5k performances to, which cannot be said for the 400h.
With statements like, "Who exactly is Sydney competing against, contemporarily or from the past? No one to speak of, frankly," you continue to expose yourself as lacking knowledge and respect of hurdlers. How about you educate yourself before continuing to try to argue one athlete's year was better than another's.
I didn't say Sydney's 50.37 WR is a Koch-level performance. I said her 47.71 relay leg was a Koch-level performance. I said that because it was the fastest relay leg in over 40 years since Koch split 47.70. It's fair to say 47.70 and 47.71 are the same level.
Sydney's 50.37 WR is better than Koch-level. It has a higher score than Koch's 400m WR (1322 to 1304), and it's a bigger outlier on the all-time list. It's also better than the 800m WR, which has a score of 1286. The 800m WR of 1:53.28 is just 0.1% better than the previous WR of 1:53.43, and it's just 0.6% better than the 1:54.01 Pamela Jelimo ran in 2008. You may not like those objective facts, but they are still facts.
I won't engage you in a discussion of which athletes were doping more than others because that's wildly speculative and impossible to prove. I'm also not going to get into what you suppose other 400m runners could have run in the hurdles "if they'd put their minds to it." My argument is based on what athletes have actually done.
Based on what Sydney and Chebet actually did, and where their respective performances stand in relation to what others have done on the track in the professional era of the sport, Sydney is the track AOY.
I disagree with a lot of this. First of all, the percentage difference thing doesn't tell us anything useful for purposes of this convo. Using this method of ranking, the 800m WR is one of the weakest world records on the track. But we all know this is absurd. The 800m WR is one of the strongest WRs on that track - no one has approached it in decades. Yes, the person who ran the time was doping, but that doesn't negate the point: competition matters. Who exactly is Sydney competing against, contemporarily or from the past? No one to speak of, frankly. While her achievements are incredible, it is very hard to gauge just how good 50.37. In my opinion, this time is what you get when you have someone with exceptional open 400m ability, perhaps sub 48.5 potential, and combine it with great hurdling technique. What this time is not is a Koch level performance. I think that Miller-Oibo (sp?), Paulino, Sonya Richards Ross, etc., all could have run similar times in the 400h if they'd put their minds too it. On Cheryuiot's performance, I still don't think it is in the conversation for #1 women's 5k performance ever, but it might be in the top 5. You're right to say that Cheryuiot would have finished a couple seconds ahead of Chebet and Kipyegon, but that lead (in terms of finishing time - Chebet and Kipyegon wouldn've been about 16 seconds back at 4k, I think) would've been created in the first 3000m or so when the pace was very slow. This matters a lot when evaluating how strong each performance was. Super shoes do matter, but this raises a couple of points: (1) Cheruiyot and, almost certainly, Ayana were doping to a degree that Kipyegon and Chebet are not, and (2), we actually have great performances from the past to compare present day 5k performances to, which cannot be said for the 400h.
With statements like, "Who exactly is Sydney competing against, contemporarily or from the past? No one to speak of, frankly," you continue to expose yourself as lacking knowledge and respect of hurdlers. How about you educate yourself before continuing to try to argue one athlete's year was better than another's.
I didn't say Sydney's 50.37 WR is a Koch-level performance. I said her 47.71 relay leg was a Koch-level performance. I said that because it was the fastest relay leg in over 40 years since Koch split 47.70. It's fair to say 47.70 and 47.71 are the same level.
Sydney's 50.37 WR is better than Koch-level. It has a higher score than Koch's 400m WR (1322 to 1304), and it's a bigger outlier on the all-time list. It's also better than the 800m WR, which has a score of 1286. The 800m WR of 1:53.28 is just 0.1% better than the previous WR of 1:53.43, and it's just 0.6% better than the 1:54.01 Pamela Jelimo ran in 2008. You may not like those objective facts, but they are still facts.
I won't engage you in a discussion of which athletes were doping more than others because that's wildly speculative and impossible to prove. I'm also not going to get into what you suppose other 400m runners could have run in the hurdles "if they'd put their minds to it." My argument is based on what athletes have actually done.
Based on what Sydney and Chebet actually did, and where their respective performances stand in relation to what others have done on the track in the professional era of the sport, Sydney is the track AOY.
It isn't better than the 400 or 800m world records. That's crazy. The level of competition and previous performances matters! This is why SML will never break the 400m WR. She probably won't even break 48. The facts you speak of don't support your very subjective conclusion!
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