2. Sunkin Meadow - Can flip flop this with Bowdoin as well. 2 brutal hills and the 2nd hill(has a name but im blanking on it) ive seen people walk on it or hands on knees climb up it. Definitely the worst hill ive ever run up but I remember passing a good 20 people on that hill alone bc of the walkers. They do have some flat which is why I put it at 2 but the flats don't feel great bc of the hills. The course record is also relatively slow but it isn't as popular of a course.
How could Franklin Park/Boston not be mentioned. I spent many a fall afternoon there. They held a WCC there. I saw the late Pat Porter run to a dominant national title there... varied terrain.
For a unique Eastern Course, Abby Aldrich's backyard (Warw.RI). Many years of HS races there (no more). I saw Bruce Bickford run to an easy NE champs there (he did not get the rec.). Historically J.D. Rockefeller Jr. was married on the grounds. It is directly on Narraganset Bay which on a cold Nov. day factored into things as the start and last 75m straight are on the water and the wind was often blowing off it.
If it's so flat then why is the course record over 15 minutes?
Because the 5k at Van Cortlandt is rarely run for HS kids, usually just for Footlocker regionals where kids are running just well enough to qualify.
Having run all 3, Sunken Meadow is significantly more difficult, so is Bowdoin, and SM is the toughest of the three. Did not run the college 8ks for Bowdoin and SM though (yes, they do exist!), I've heard the 8k at SM which is only used for small college meets is insanely tough.
I don't think Franklin Park is a super hard course, and frankly with all the pavement, to me it is one of the more overrated, hyped up courses. I'm aware that the Worlds were held there, and I've raced the Mayor's Cup, but to me any xc course that has pavement automatically loses a few points.
Franklin park is the "easiest", fastest course I can think of in New England. Obviously, that doesn't mean its not a worthy course for a championship meet.
VCP, Holmdel, Wickham, and Hereford are all hilly course but still decently fast. Many sub-16:00s and sub-18:00s every year and truly elite boys could approach 15:00 or even dip under (Cheserek, Ostberg, Sherry, etc.).
Bowdoin and Sunken Meadow are very tough courses and a good 15-30 seconds slower than that group depending on the day, but still not impossibly slow (as shown by Tuohy's 16:45 and 16:52 course records, great as they are). Monroe-Woodbury is similar, maybe a bit harder but not significantly.
Thetford, on the other hand, is actually, legitimately, brutal. Gavin Sherry had an excellent race and barely squeaked under 16:00. Aidan Puffer and Callum Sherry failed to do so despite being elite runners themselves. The fastest boys in VT usually run 16:30-17:00 on this course. It's truly insane.
There are going to be a few random smaller courses here and there that may be harder, but Thetford must be the hardest championship course out there for sure.
I dont have much of a say since I run my local courses, but here's what my list is. Definitely would like to hear thoughts!
1. Holmdel Park (Holmdel, NJ)
2. PTXC (Kutztown, PA)
3. Greystone (Morristown, NJ)
4. Darlington Park (Mahwah, NJ)
5. Oak Ridge Park (Clark, NJ)
Darlington???? Are you kidding? Thats considered a flat course. The only bump is in the sand. Van Cortland is one of the toughest courses in NJ/NY. Not for HS but for NCAA, which includes the backwoods and cemetary hill
I dont as I mentioned before. My local course is Greystone. Kutztown & Holmdel were part of the PTXC and Shore Coaches Invitationals. Darlington was ages ago as I lived in the area before.
Then why spew nonsense? And btw the Shore Coaches invitational course is not considered difficult either.
VCP, Holmdel, Wickham, and Hereford are all hilly course but still decently fast. Many sub-16:00s and sub-18:00s every year and truly elite boys could approach 15:00 or even dip under (Cheserek, Ostberg, Sherry, etc.).
Bowdoin and Sunken Meadow are very tough courses and a good 15-30 seconds slower than that group depending on the day, but still not impossibly slow (as shown by Tuohy's 16:45 and 16:52 course records, great as they are). Monroe-Woodbury is similar, maybe a bit harder but not significantly.
Thetford, on the other hand, is actually, legitimately, brutal. Gavin Sherry had an excellent race and barely squeaked under 16:00. Aidan Puffer and Callum Sherry failed to do so despite being elite runners themselves. The fastest boys in VT usually run 16:30-17:00 on this course. It's truly insane.
There are going to be a few random smaller courses here and there that may be harder, but Thetford must be the hardest championship course out there for sure.
Are you putting Hereford, MD in the same category as VCP? Do you really think it's fast?
The Derryfield course was revised this year and I expect it to probably be equal to or slightly slower than Wickham, but there's only been one real race on it in relatively poor conditions. The previous course Maine used, Twin Brooks, was probably slotted in between Wickham and Thetford. Looking at old speed ratings it looks like the old Hereford course was about equivalent to Thetford in terms of times.