Trey Caldwell BREAKS Historical California XC Course Record!

Liam Anderson of Marin (in Northern California) won NXN in 2018 and beat Nico Young 2x in the first year Newbury was on the H.S. distance running map.

When those nationally ranked, All-American runners that you mentioned can’t get it done head-to-head against superior runners from other sections who never compete at Crystal Springs, then that means the record has never been tested against the best. If the top California-wide high schoolers ran an annual invitational at Crystal Springs like they do at Mt Sac, Clovis/Woodward, Woodbridge, etc. then the record would be sub-14 by now. That is by definition a “soft” record.

I literally don't understand your conclusion about CCS being a weak section. Bellarmine's Topper's, Peattie, and Beaudoin-Rousseau were all super strong runners who couldn't beat the record. CCS can't be (recently) weak if it's pumped out runners like Aydon Stefanopoulos, Eli Fitchen-Young, Grant Morgenfeld, Jeremy Kaine, Justin/Landon Pretre, Ben Sitler, Carson Hedlund, Ben Bouie, Miles Cook, etc. These are literally ALL top runners who run 4:10 & 8:57 or faster in High School who are from CCS.

Your reasoning is literally just a "hunch" or a "guess." What are you gaining from belittling the breaking of a 51 year old XC course record?

Anderson went to Redwood in Larkspur, not Marin

No. No. And, Hell No.

The all-time 2.95 mile Crystal Springs course record is 14:14 set by Matt Giusto at the 1987 Turkey Trot. It's there in the record book lists linked earlier in this thread for all to see.

Yes, that Matt Giusto. 1996 Olympian in the 5000. 1983 Kinney National XC Champion. 1988 NCAA outdoor 5000 Champion. 3rd at the 1986 NCAA Div I XC Championships and 20th a year later -- one week before he won the Turkey Trot race.

Now, following Saturday's Crystal Springs Invite, Matt's best time on Crystal as a hs'er is down to a tie for 8th on the hs list -- with Andy DiConti/La Canada, a well-known SoCal prep star in his day.

So, a time of 14:14 at Crystal is well above the ceiling for a high schooler, in this age of super shoes or any other. Very much doubt any boy will even break 14:20 on Crystal for another generation or two.

Here's a mind-bender:

Woodward Park's all-time 5k course record is also 14:14. At a race in August 2022, Diego Estrada (age 32) ran 14:14.57. Kasey Knevelbaard (age 25) 2nd in 14:20.73. CJ Albertson (age 28) 3rd in 14:29.67. This race even warranted a thread on LRC:

https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=11432543

Thus, 14:14 at Woodward Park is also well above the ceiling for any high schooler, in this age of super shoes or any other. As with Crystal, very much doubt any boy will even break 14:20 on Woodward for another generation or two.

By this metric, German's 14:24 Woodward Park course record is only a marginally better performance than Trey's 14:27.1 Crystal Springs course record.

So, if you are having trouble trying to convince anyone that Crystal Springs' hs boy's course record is weak by any standard of comparison, now you know why.

I believe the 5k course may have had some alteration? Now that FL Northeast has been moved to Franklin Park I'm not sure the 5k course is really run by high schoolers anymore. The 2.5 has always been identical for the last 67 years to my knowledge. That said, the Parks department that maintains VCP has definitely made more of an effort to groom the trails across the bridge than they did in the 50s or early 60s so it may be faster now just because of that (even if the layout is the same). The course record dropped almost 40 seconds from 1957 to 1966 and it was largely due to this initiative.

Marty Liquori ran 12:23 at VCP in 1966 and that is the fastest pre-1970 time on the course, and puts him 53rd all-time. Also of note is Luis Ostolozaga's 12:16 in 1975, which puts him 21st all-time and would still win most Eastern States races today (including this year's). Sub-12:00 was first achieved by Edward Cheserek in 2011 and his 11:55 is still the course record, although he himself ran 11:58 in 2012 and Alex Ostberg joined him in the sub-12:00 club in 2014 with an 11:57.

The girls' records have been kept since 1977 but the oldest time on the top 100 list is Christine Curtin's 14:14 from 1981, which puts her 29th all-time. That would also have won this year's race. Sub-14:00 was once upon a time viewed as comparable to sub-12:00 for the boys, with only four performances under the mark pre-2017 (Jess Lawson 13:53, Carly Seymour 13:55, Nicole Blood 13:57, and Aisling Cuffe 13:58). However, in 2017, Katelyn Tuohy set a historic record running 13:21 in the Varsity C race to win by over 90 seconds. Since then there have been 5 more times under 14:00 including a 13:33 by Tuohy, a 13:45 by Claire Walters, a 13:52 by Brooke Rauber, and a 13:55 by Karrie Baloga.

Not to turn a thread about a California course into another Tuohy thread, but when people discuss her greatness I think her VCP time (which is far from her best race believe it or not) provides a bit of perspective...Lawson, Seymour, Blood, Cuffe, Walters, Rauber, and Baloga is a ridiculous list. All finished in the top 10 at a national meet and two (Cuffe, Baloga) were FL champions. They all ran 13:45-13:58 at VCP (and Walters/Rauber only ran so fast because Tuohy was in the race) and Tuohy ran 13:21 completely alone...it would be like if Trey Caldwell had run sub-14:00 at Crystal Springs, not 14:27.

Historic not historical

my two pennies . . . Thank You!

So informative to read your full post, again and again. Marty Liquori, like Mitch Kingery, a blast from the past.

Hard to believe that a course shoehorned into a city park has not changed a wink for so long. Coaches must have advised NYC P&R Dept regarding VCP proposed changes; i.e., installing/removing picnic areas, tree planting, parking lot expansions, etc., so as not to interfere with the 2.5 mile course.

Gratifying to know NYC coaches resisted the urge to lengthen the course distance to 3.0 miles or 5k which became the trend starting in the mid-1970s, further enhanced by the advent of the Kinney Champs in 1979.

And, very much enjoyed the Tuohy anecdotes.

Everyone knew she was an outlier -- especially her 2017-2019 hs soph & jr seasons -- yet she is still 24 seconds ahead of the 2nd best runner on that top-100 list. Over a 2.5 mile distance. Maybe in 2068 some girl will break Katelyn's record -- 51 years later😀.

I'm hesitant to agree with the sub-14 @ Crystal Springs comparison simply due to how different -- and more difficult -- Crystal is from any other course. Which is why I stopped trying to make projections from Crystal Springs to Woodward Park ages ago.

I will state this. Tuohy's 16:45.2/5k CR @ Bowdoin Park in 2018 is my pick for the best xc race of her hs career. Even better than her best NXN win. That time is still, what, about a minute faster than any other girl? And accomplished on a very hilly course from all I have read.

Thus, knowing she could run super fast on hilly courses, I would grant you Katelyn would be well under Ellen Lyon's 16:31/2.95 mile girls CR @ Crystal Springs set at the 1979 Kinney West Regional -- a record which no other girl has come close to in 45 years.

my two pennies, if you know of any college or professional races that were run on the VCP 2.5 mile course, I would be especially interested in learning if anyone beat Cheserek or Tuohy's hs course records -- as Guisto did @ Crystal Springs and Estrada did @ Woodward Park. The latter two -- with their respective 14:14 CRs -- showed how historic the current respective 14:27.1/Crystal and 14:24/Woodward hs records are, and how unlikely it is that we'll ever see a boy even dip under 14:20 on either course in our lifetimes.

Thank you!!

Under 16:31? I think so. Significantly under? No way. Anna Maxwell, a 10:04 runner, ran 16:53 on the course. Cory Schubert, also a 10:04 runner and double CIF state champion ran 17:23 on the course.

I'm honestly not sure the girls record will ever be broken. 16:31 is such an outlier from the other times it's kind of insane.

In cross country specifically, Tuohy ran times comparable to a 9:20-9:30 boys 2-miler...Holmdel Park is an intense course as well and an actual full 5k. The boys record is 14:53 by Edward Cheserek. Tuohy ran 16:21 there. So Tuohy was about 90 seconds behind Edward Cheserek at Holmdel (on a good day for the king). Unless you think Edward Cheserek would struggle to run under 15:00 at Crystal Springs, then Tuohy could certainly have run under 16:30. If anything I would expect Cheserek to be well under 14:30 at Crystal Springs, putting Tuohy...under 16:00.

As another example, Bowdoin Park is another very difficult course, also a full 5k. The boys record is 15:18 by DJ Principe, and recently Joe Barrett ran 15:25 there. Tuohy ran 16:45 there. DJ Principe was not quite as good as Cheserek, but he was definitely on the level of Trey Caldwell (if not a bit higher). Barrett seems actually quite comparable to Caldwell. So Tuohy was once again about 80-90 seconds behind Caldwell's peers...once again putting Tuohy under 16:00 at Crystal Springs.

If you didn't actually get to see her run and experience it, it can be hard to understand just how good she was. She would've made the varsity squad of every boys team at NXN in 2017 except Loudoun Valley (the winners) and would've scored for the majority. She would've had a legitimate chance at being recruited to run D1 men's cross country. When she ran 13:21 at VCP it was an absolutely mind-blowing performance - it was a huge deal when Lawson ran 13:53 two years prior. The fact that it arguably doesn't even make the list of her top 5 high school XC accomplishments (Holmdel record, Bowdoin record, Sunken Meadow record, NXN 3-peat, Ocean State) is just...it really cannot be overstated how unbelievably good she was.

FWIW, they actually have a difficult and hilly 3-mile course close to where Tuohy lives called Bear Mountain. The boys' record is 14:24 by the legendary John Trautmann. The girls' record before Tuohy was 16:27 and that was unthinkably fast, set by FL champion Aisling Cuffe (the previous record was also held by a FL champion Aislinn Ryan)...certainly a very, very comparable course to Crystal Springs in many respects.

Tuohy ran 15:55 (twice).

I believe the college women used to run 2.5-mile. I'm not sure the college men ever did. FWIW, I actually think Cathy Schiro's 16:46 5k record is slightly superior to Tuohy's 13:21 2.5-mile record. She was a legend and that was an amazing time on that course (and required her to run the same last 2.5 miles in approximately 13:29). If Tuohy had come back to Manhattan in 2018 instead of running at Sunken Meadow, she would have likely been knocking on sub-13:00.

Well, in the 45 years Ellen's record has existed, the closest any girl has gotten is 16:42, so you may be right.

Ok.

Thx again.

Will be watching for your future posts.

my two pennies, very much enjoy reading your Tuohy remembrances.

Just keeping my fingers crossed for Katelyn to recapture her hs magic, now as a pro. (In retrospect, it does all seem like magic, given how alien those times still appear.) Were that to happen, the US will likely soon have it's first Oly/WC medal in the women's 5k. Or, a medal in World XC.

I understand how your arithmetic leads to a.sub-16 @ Crystal Springs. Just can't bring myself to believe the extrapolation from her NY/NJ/RI course record times would be that linear or even accurate to within, say, +/- 20 seconds. Sub 16:30? Sure. But all the way down to 16:10, much less sub-16? That gets caught in my throat.

But, will state this: in my opinion -- and many others -- Tuohy is arguably the GOAT of girls HS xc running, with Melody Fairchild the only other name in the conversation.

Thus, have a pretty shrewd hunch Katelyn will still be holding one or more hs xc course records 50 years from now -- which is why this thread was started in the first place.

As an old running acquaintance of Matt's (aka the Juice) from Nor Cal and Arizona, I remember that Thanksgiving week of the Turkey Trot. To start, Matt ran 29:40 for 10k at Woodward Park (2 x the 5k course) at the District Region meet the week before the NCAA X-C Champs in Charlottesville, Virginia on Monday where he placed 20th (he was not happy), he then ran a downhill mile race in Tucson on Tuesday where he won in 3:45, flew home to Northern California on Wednesday, and ran 14:14 at Crystal Springs on Thursday Thanksgiving morning. When got back to Tucson the end of Thanksgiving weekend he told us that he wanted to break 14:00 at Crystal Springs, but that the course was too hard, and even if he had more rest the 14:00 min barrier would've been really tough to get. FYI- Crystal Springs was Matt's home course in high school, his best time of 14:40 was his senior year in 1983 at the league championship where he won by over a minute, his best 5k at Woodward Park was 15:03 a month later and week before winning the Kinney National Champs at Balboa Park in 14:54. Not a bad stretch run from October to December.

This Caldwell kid did run 9:53 as a jr last year & quaified for Foot lock as a Soph & Jr. Can we give the kid credit.

This is honestly the worst take I’ve seen on this website. In years. And that’s saying a lot.

8:53, for 11th at the CA state champs in June.

Trey has certainly received ample credit on this thread . . . save one poster who realized he was trying to defend an indefensible logic and has quietly excused himself from this discussion.

Will say, though, there will a lot of eyes on Trey next month at State, wondering whether he is the best CA boy this fall and can he actually threaten Fernandez' CR @ Woodward.