The NCAA needs to start implementing drug testing.
I am not leveling any accusations at Shane but as long as there is no drug testing, suspicion is going to run rampant at all athletes, especially ones who seem to come from obscurity.
Any athlete who has progressed like Shane would be suspicious.
The thing that gets me about Cohen is I can totally understand how somebody with that backstory and high school track record can become a 1:46-1:47 guy in a good D1 program.
But running 1:44 with a 12.3 close is a totally different level of talent, and he's shown that it wasn't a fluke, he can do that on consecutive days over rounds. How does he not run any faster than 49.2 in high school? I know track wasn't a priority, but still, world-class talent always shines early.
Anyway he's a great story and I'm rooting for him, hope he's legit and continues to run like this for many years.
It's not that he 'barely broke 1:45', it's the way he did it
Look at how Makhloufi and Sedjati finish 800s, or look at how Katir would finish in the final 100. That's him
Look how the American with the hat finished his olympic 800 final in 1972. Look at how Andrews finished his races not too long ago.
So these are all really different circumstances, I posted about this on another thread after NCAA's but what we are seeing from Cohen is kind off all-time all-world stuff here.
Robby is the easy comparison because they are/were both running in Virginia colors, they got the same hairdo and the optic of the big finish is the same. But even in Robby's most famous race - the 2011 NCAA final, he is 1.31.7 with 100m to go so he's like 12.9/13.0 for that last 100m. And that is very very good but remember this was a really fast race with Jock taking it out in 49.86 and it was right at 1.17.0 at 600m which is really top end for a collegiate 800m race. So Robby really just runs a smart race and looks great vs guys that were eating it in the final 80 of an express race. Wottle is also very different. In that Munich final he's right at 1.32.8 through 700m so it's also right at 13.0 - but it's a 1.45 high race. I'm not detracting from Wottle or Andrews but we have to put this into context.
The only races I could historically remember that match what we are seeing Cohen do are the 1995 World final and the 2000 Olympic final, won by Kipketer and Schumann. In 1995 Kipketer crosses 700m in 1.32.5 so he runs somewhere in the 12.5/6 range for that final 100m. But this is Wilson Kipketer who won 3 straight world titles, ran 1.41.11 and broke Coes WR miraculously surviving a 48.3 opening 400m. Even though he's not the WR holder or the greatest ever he still might be the most talented 800m runner of all time. In 2000 Schumann crosses 700m in 1.32.4 and rips off a 12.5/6 final 100m as well. Schumann wasn't the high end talent Kipketer was but one of the toughest and strongest guys of a great era of 800m running.
At NCAA's we saw Cohen run quicker than both these guys not just in the final time but also the final 100m (12.4) despite having to round an entire field that was already across the track. And he did so starting in lane 2, then getting even wider as he caught the back of Camden Marshalls heel which took him almost out to lane 3 before running on a diagonal up the home straight to finish on the inside of the lane. Last night was not quite as impressive as he crossed in 1.32.3 (I was sitting at 120 to go point and filmed it) so he dusts off that final section in 12.5/6 without nearly as much traffic to round.
So it's tough to know what to think. Because on one hand we have a guy who displaying all time ability that matches some of the most talented guys ever in the event (not just collegians or Americans, like historically great guys) and yet he started the season with a 1.48 PR and an odd history in the event.
Maybe he was just the ultimate hidden gem of all-world talent that was finally uncovered in Virginia. Maybe that's how it is and a reminder that talent is out there and everywhere and by-in-large simply untapped in society. Maybe it's something else. Given the comparisons the question is fair.
Here are some more recent races I thought of to give context.
- Yego wins the 2007 worlds in 1.47.09 (the slowest global 800m win since Tom Courtney in 1956!!!) with a 12.5 last 100m
- Mulaudzi wins the 2009 worlds in 1.45.29 with a 13.2 final 100m
So with respect to 2007, Cohen is matching/slightly exceeding that final burn-up except he's going through 700m over 2 seconds faster. With respect to 2009 he is absolutely pasting that field by meters and that field included guys like Borzakovskiy, Symmonds, Lewandowksi and of course Mulaudzi who wasn't half bad.
Wasn't the same. You need to look at the Wottle final again. The Makhloufi comparison is more accurate. (Wottle was also the co-world record-holder at that time, so his win was not out of left-field). I couldn't believe Cohen's finish, when he passed the ENTIRE field in the last 150m - like a rocket.
Their splits were 52-54, his were 53.6- 53.1. They slowed down he negative split that's why he looked like a rocket to you.
Numbers do not disguise what could be seen in front of your eyes. At the NCAA'S a former D2 runner with lousy form raced around the field from the very back at 150m out to passing them all as though they were standing still. It was as good an advertisement for drugs as I have seen.
This post was edited 7 minutes after it was posted.
Look how the American with the hat finished his olympic 800 final in 1972. Look at how Andrews finished his races not too long ago.
So these are all really different circumstances, I posted about this on another thread after NCAA's but what we are seeing from Cohen is kind off all-time all-world stuff here.
Robby is the easy comparison because they are/were both running in Virginia colors, they got the same hairdo and the optic of the big finish is the same. But even in Robby's most famous race - the 2011 NCAA final, he is 1.31.7 with 100m to go so he's like 12.9/13.0 for that last 100m. And that is very very good but remember this was a really fast race with Jock taking it out in 49.86 and it was right at 1.17.0 at 600m which is really top end for a collegiate 800m race. So Robby really just runs a smart race and looks great vs guys that were eating it in the final 80 of an express race. Wottle is also very different. In that Munich final he's right at 1.32.8 through 700m so it's also right at 13.0 - but it's a 1.45 high race. I'm not detracting from Wottle or Andrews but we have to put this into context.
The only races I could historically remember that match what we are seeing Cohen do are the 1995 World final and the 2000 Olympic final, won by Kipketer and Schumann. In 1995 Kipketer crosses 700m in 1.32.5 so he runs somewhere in the 12.5/6 range for that final 100m. But this is Wilson Kipketer who won 3 straight world titles, ran 1.41.11 and broke Coes WR miraculously surviving a 48.3 opening 400m. Even though he's not the WR holder or the greatest ever he still might be the most talented 800m runner of all time. In 2000 Schumann crosses 700m in 1.32.4 and rips off a 12.5/6 final 100m as well. Schumann wasn't the high end talent Kipketer was but one of the toughest and strongest guys of a great era of 800m running.
At NCAA's we saw Cohen run quicker than both these guys not just in the final time but also the final 100m (12.4) despite having to round an entire field that was already across the track. And he did so starting in lane 2, then getting even wider as he caught the back of Camden Marshalls heel which took him almost out to lane 3 before running on a diagonal up the home straight to finish on the inside of the lane. Last night was not quite as impressive as he crossed in 1.32.3 (I was sitting at 120 to go point and filmed it) so he dusts off that final section in 12.5/6 without nearly as much traffic to round.
So it's tough to know what to think. Because on one hand we have a guy who displaying all time ability that matches some of the most talented guys ever in the event (not just collegians or Americans, like historically great guys) and yet he started the season with a 1.48 PR and an odd history in the event.
Maybe he was just the ultimate hidden gem of all-world talent that was finally uncovered in Virginia. Maybe that's how it is and a reminder that talent is out there and everywhere and by-in-large simply untapped in society. Maybe it's something else. Given the comparisons the question is fair.
Good breakdown but you're too generous. This guy is not a Kipketer or Schumann coming out of nowhere.
A basketball player who didn’t take track seriously and did it as a side hobby ran 49 low in likely pretty bad high school training, probably not optimizing diet, sleep, body type for track, shows a lot of potential talent. I think some of you forget how suboptimallh the majority of high school track athletes train. when I think back to my own high school training it was a total joke. I was lifting to get big upper body for other sports and no one told me this was a bad idea for track, etc. and I have no where near cohen’s talent but if I had done a lot of simple things better I’d have been significantly faster in high school.
5 years later with profressional level coaching and dedication and including one year with a serious injury it isn’t crazy that he can run 1:45. not saying everyone or even most people with this profile could do this like this can do it but there was pretty clearly always a lot of talent there.
5 years later with profressional level coaching and dedication and including one year with a serious injury it isn’t crazy that he can run 1:45. not saying everyone or even most people with this profile could do this like this can do it but there was pretty clearly always a lot of talent there.
I don't disagree with that. But lets just acknowledge these aren't regular 1.45's (1.44.9's) we are talking about here. It's not the straight up traditional splits that he is making that is eye-opening because even yesterday he ran 1.44.92 off a 52.02. It's that within his second lap of 52.90 he is running from 400-700m in well over 40 seconds (yesterday 40.4) which is 54 second pace but then somehow bouncing back from this to rip off the fastest home straight running the world has ever seen at this level of 800m running.
Hey maybe he has just unlocked something? Maybe that mild paced opening 400m followed by an even slower next 300m does allow you to be so fresh at 700m you can do this sort of stuff. Again I don't really know but it's certainly unprecedented.
This post was edited 42 seconds after it was posted.
No f*cking way he's clean. Especially since he never displayed this talent
Well it was cool but probably is because he ran the preceding 400m in 53.84 which is an uncompetitive segment in a high-level 800m . Let’s see if he has another level, but right now it’s merely a gimmicky way to run the 800.
A “gimmick?” That’s a strange way to describe closing a 1:44.9 in 12.3. There are no “gimmicks” for running 1:44.9, and I would think you’d acknowledge that closing in 12.3 in lane 3 is not the easiest way to do it. He has to be capable of significantly faster with pacing that doesn’t allow him to close in under 13 seconds.
5 years later with profressional level coaching and dedication and including one year with a serious injury it isn’t crazy that he can run 1:45. not saying everyone or even most people with this profile could do this like this can do it but there was pretty clearly always a lot of talent there.
I don't disagree with that. But lets just acknowledge these aren't regular 1.45's (1.44.9's) we are talking about here. It's not the straight up traditional splits that he is making that is eye-opening because even yesterday he ran 1.44.92 off a 52.02. It's that within his second lap of 52.90 he is running from 400-700m in well over 40 seconds (yesterday 40.4) which is 54 second pace but then somehow bouncing back from this to rip off the fastest home straight running the world has ever seen at this level of 800m running.
Hey maybe he has just unlocked something? Maybe that mild paced opening 400m followed by an even slower next 300m does allow you to be so fresh at 700m you can do this sort of stuff. Again I don't really know but it's certainly unprecedented.
If it is "unprecedented" in a sport in which drugs are a commonplace what are the chances it is only achievable with drugs?
I don't disagree with that. But lets just acknowledge these aren't regular 1.45's (1.44.9's) we are talking about here. It's not the straight up traditional splits that he is making that is eye-opening because even yesterday he ran 1.44.92 off a 52.02. It's that within his second lap of 52.90 he is running from 400-700m in well over 40 seconds (yesterday 40.4) which is 54 second pace but then somehow bouncing back from this to rip off the fastest home straight running the world has ever seen at this level of 800m running.
Hey maybe he has just unlocked something? Maybe that mild paced opening 400m followed by an even slower next 300m does allow you to be so fresh at 700m you can do this sort of stuff. Again I don't really know but it's certainly unprecedented.
If it is "unprecedented" in a sport in which drugs are a commonplace what are the chances it is only achievable with drugs?
Well it was cool but probably is because he ran the preceding 400m in 53.84 which is an uncompetitive segment in a high-level 800m . Let’s see if he has another level, but right now it’s merely a gimmicky way to run the 800.
A “gimmick?” That’s a strange way to describe closing a 1:44.9 in 12.3. There are no “gimmicks” for running 1:44.9, and I would think you’d acknowledge that closing in 12.3 in lane 3 is not the easiest way to do it. He has to be capable of significantly faster with pacing that doesn’t allow him to close in under 13 seconds.
So if he is finishing an 800 like Bolt at full steam and he is clean what would he be doing if he was doped? 1:42? And 11-flat for the last 100?
I don't disagree with that. But lets just acknowledge these aren't regular 1.45's (1.44.9's) we are talking about here. It's not the straight up traditional splits that he is making that is eye-opening because even yesterday he ran 1.44.92 off a 52.02. It's that within his second lap of 52.90 he is running from 400-700m in well over 40 seconds (yesterday 40.4) which is 54 second pace but then somehow bouncing back from this to rip off the fastest home straight running the world has ever seen at this level of 800m running.
Hey maybe he has just unlocked something? Maybe that mild paced opening 400m followed by an even slower next 300m does allow you to be so fresh at 700m you can do this sort of stuff. Again I don't really know but it's certainly unprecedented.
I set my 800 pr with a somewhat fast opening 400, relatively slow next 250, and a fast final 150. I was nowhere near 1:44 (1:50) but I know enough about the 800 that for me, as a very distance focused runner, I could run something like 27-27-28-27 and decimals for 1:50. I think doing a ton of mileage made me much stronger over the last 150 than the 400 types dying then.
But closing 1:44 in 12.2 from a 200/400 type runner? Doesn’t pass the eye test, or even close to it.
Look at his TFRRS:
Feb 18, 2023: 4:11.72 1500
March 3, 2023: 1:57.00
March 17-18, 2023: 1:56.55 / 4:15.01 (1500)
April 7-8, 2023: 1:58.15
April 21-22: 1:54.97
April 28-29: 1:53.78
May 13: 1:54.33
…
Jan 26-27 2024: 1:50.18
Feb 9-10: 1:49.06, 1:51.95 (BU)
Feb 16: 1:48.15
Feb 22-24: 1:50.22 ACC prelim, 11th
March 23: 3:54.56 1500
March 28: 3:47.34
Aprio 12-13: 1:49,57
Aprio 19-20: 1:47.54
May 9-11: 1:47.5 prelim, 1:46.89 final (3rd)
and then runs 1:45, 1:46, 1:44 in the NCAA
Completely normal progression in 5 months, 1:50 to 1:44 with a 12.2 close! Nothing to see here!
One more thing. I just realized this. You’ll close stronger but your overall time likely will be worse with the 400, 300 slow-ish, 100 burnup
Even something like 50, 39, 13.5 for 1:42.5 is much more optimal than 51, 41, 12.5. There’s only so much time you can make up in the last 100 (12.0 is probably the absolute limit) from a slower last 300. Which makes it seem like he’s in 1:43 low to mid shape. So his progression is a ton like Katir
A “gimmick?” That’s a strange way to describe closing a 1:44.9 in 12.3. There are no “gimmicks” for running 1:44.9, and I would think you’d acknowledge that closing in 12.3 in lane 3 is not the easiest way to do it. He has to be capable of significantly faster with pacing that doesn’t allow him to close in under 13 seconds.
So if he is finishing an 800 like Bolt at full steam and he is clean what would he be doing if he was doped? 1:42? And 11-flat for the last 100?
Why are you replying to my post with this? Why would you think I believe he’s clean? And what kind of moronic backwards logic are you driving at anyway?
I looked at some articles about his high school basketball career back when he was winning the NCAA championship. As a 5'7" point guard, he led a 28-4 basketball team to the state semifinals in Pennsylvania his senior year. So, he finished his basketball season at the end of March. No indoor season. Outdoor season he started in April. His season ended probably in late May. So, now it should be clear why he didn't run any faster in high school.
Agreed -, you're giving stats from his last Tampa season when he had suffered a stress fracture in xc. To see his progression, look at his previous year (2022) where he ran 22/48/1:48 and then dropped under 25 for 8k in xc, improving a minute or two there from much higher mileage before getting injured. So, he was already going to run a couple seconds faster from the mileage. He just had to stay healthy, and of course have seven sub-4 minute milers to run with in training.
Yet another finish where he went from 8th to near 1st (letting up because he easily qualified) with a massive kick over the final 100. Considering that the NCAA doesn't drug test at all, does anyone believe he went from 1:53 (1:48) to 1:44 in a year legitimately?
simetimes doping accusations make sense but this is a little ridiculous. he’s had steady progression over the last two years and oh yea he transferred to an incredible d1 program which could also be why he’s gotten faster. a lot of the time ppl who accuse others of doping are projecting because they suck at the sport. someone has to be the best and just because they have more potential than u doesn’t mean they’re doping🤦♂️
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