We gave a different understanding of what a kick is. Look at videos of Snell in the 1500 at Tokyo (and before that, Modesto in '63), Ryun in the '67 Colosseum Relays, and Coe in the Moscow 1500. They crushed it. Despite his fantastic endurance Jakob simply doesn't have that kind of overdrive.
So Jakob didn’t pass Cheruiyot with a kick 120 meters before the finish line in Tokyo Olympics..?
We gave a different understanding of what a kick is. Look at videos of Snell in the 1500 at Tokyo (and before that, Modesto in '63), Ryun in the '67 Colosseum Relays, and Coe in the Moscow 1500. They crushed it. Despite his fantastic endurance Jakob simply doesn't have that kind of overdrive.
So Jakob didn’t pass Cheruiyot with a kick 120 meters before the finish line in Tokyo Olympics..?
I think Cheruiyot was slowing, as he was running out of gas (unlike his exceptional effort in the earlier WC). Jakob had more in the tank at the end but it wasn't a kick like the examples I described above, which showed sudden and spectacular acceleration. That kind of finish isn't part of Jakob's toolkit.
So Jakob didn’t pass Cheruiyot with a kick 120 meters before the finish line in Tokyo Olympics..?
I think Cheruiyot was slowing, as he was running out of gas (unlike his exceptional effort in the earlier WC). Jakob had more in the tank at the end but it wasn't a kick like the examples I described above, which showed sudden and spectacular acceleration. That kind of finish isn't part of Jakob's toolkit.
We all know you hate Jakob but this one is really not arguable. He set the early pace, smartly drafted off of Tim, then unleashed a killer kick to destroy the field and set an Olympic Record. His kick in the last 2 WC’s can be fairly criticized and it’s definitely an issue leading to Paris. But on that day he had it all working.
I think Cheruiyot was slowing, as he was running out of gas (unlike his exceptional effort in the earlier WC). Jakob had more in the tank at the end but it wasn't a kick like the examples I described above, which showed sudden and spectacular acceleration. That kind of finish isn't part of Jakob's toolkit.
My point is this (and I think Jakob would agree): What counts is who can kick hardest out of a sub 3.29 pace. And until now that clearly was Jakob in 2023. Pr date I think Kerr is the only threat to Jakob in such a pace (and I would be surprised if sub 3.29 won’t be the pace in Paris Olympics) -Saturday’s race showed that Kerr is up to it. But the question may also be: Is Kerr up to a better finish (than Jakob) if the latter makes the pace sub 3.28..?
I think the speed on the home straight in a fast race will be decided by how strong each runner is overall (not 800m pb) and how much energy he has spent during the first 1400m. If the Olympics mirrors Josh’s and Jakob’s racing in the WC 2023 (Jakob more in the front, Josh running wider bends) but goes slightly faster I think it’s advantage Jakob (him having a capacity of 3.26.5, Josh 3.27.5) -the latter will then sprint away on the home straight… (So the question is first and foremost this, IMO: Will Jakob reach 3.26.5 fitness, and Josh 3.27.5!?). And for the record: Nobody shows sudden and spectacular speed on the home straight in a (such) fast race!
This post was edited 10 minutes after it was posted.
The first question of this thread should have been: What is the cost of air resistance at 3:30 1500m pace?
Air resistance (and the benefit of drafting) increases the faster you go, and the more windy it is. Does anyone know the energy savings of drafting at 3:30 pace for 1350m in, let’s say, 7mph winds? Let’s say it’s 2.3s. Excluding mental benefits of drafting, Jakob has to be at least 2.3s better than everyone to lead wire to wire. (I completely made up 2.3s and have no idea what it is, but it’s the most important question).
The first question of this thread should have been: What is the cost of air resistance at 3:30 1500m pace?
Air resistance (and the benefit of drafting) increases the faster you go, and the more windy it is. Does anyone know the energy savings of drafting at 3:30 pace for 1350m in, let’s say, 7mph winds? Let’s say it’s 2.3s. Excluding mental benefits of drafting, Jakob has to be at least 2.3s better than everyone to lead wire to wire. (I completely made up 2.3s and have no idea what it is, but it’s the most important question).
In addition, Jakob drafted for 100% of this past race, while Kerr led for 600m. So Jakob overcame less air resistance than Kerr & still lost. So it’s reasonable to at least question that he won’t gain enough fitness relative to Kerr to be sooo much better that he can lead wire and wire and win 18/20 times.
You guys need to rewatch Jakob’s Silesia race. Even with three pacers he wasn’t drafting very much. There were long sections where he may as well have been running on his own in terms of any sort of drafting benefit. He ran 3:27.14 in that race and still had a kick (40.2 final 300). Winning from the front is very doable if you are in that kind of shape.
Jakob might not have been drafting much in the first two laps Silesia, but he was on McSewyn's back from 800-1200m and had wavelights for assistance as well.
I think the wavelights in particular make a big difference for Jakob, his aerobic strength really shines when he can just set his pace to the lights. Much harder to go by feel in a high-pressure championship race.
So Jakob didn’t pass Cheruiyot with a kick 120 meters before the finish line in Tokyo Olympics..?
I think Cheruiyot was slowing, as he was running out of gas (unlike his exceptional effort in the earlier WC). Jakob had more in the tank at the end but it wasn't a kick like the examples I described above, which showed sudden and spectacular acceleration. That kind of finish isn't part of Jakob's toolkit.
He only got beat by one guy in both WC 1500 meters had outstanding kicks in his 5000m wins. I bet that in your prime, couldn’t have broken 90 off of 6:00 pace.
Outside of LR, your Joliet Jake analogy is one of the dumbest I’ve ever seen.
It's taken a few threads for you to concede that. But Jakob never will.
I have never doubted that Kerr from the beginning of the indoors season, through what we saw in Eugene Saturday, and probably some weeks further on, is the indisputable best miler in the world.
And based on his interviews I think Jakob agrees. This is no difficult for him -what’s difficult (for him, like some others) is nevertheless not being cocky and insulting…
They try to ask him if he’s going to adjust his preparation for Paris at all and he says that if he’s winning 18 out of 20 times then that’s a good success rate and he doesn’t need to change his approach. The interviewer (Mac Fleet) agreed with him at this point, though it seems Jakob is missing a key point: it’s consistently working in races where he has a rabbit the first 900 meters but has had a very low success rate in non-rabbited races, which is what Paris will be.
I would have expected him to recognize this so was surprising to hear his response and how he mentally groups the Diamond League and championship-style races into the same bucket.
That’s Jakobs best possible race strategy. He has inferior leg speed and vastly superior endurance. Wire to wire is the best way to race cause he’s not fast enough to hawk down the guys with 47 400m leg speed in the final 150m. He’s not losing because he’s racing stupid, he’s losing because he’s not the best man on the day.
He has outstanding leg speed and only one guy was able to beat him in both 1500m losses. His competitors in the 5000m have no chance of out kicking him.
Who is it that can run 47 that will be in the Paris final? In response to previous poster’s comment, the only strategy where he can win at Paris will be to hire a rabbit for the first 900m?
He has years and years of experience of racing at highest level of the sport and you have identified the only possible way he can win? It’s very possible that he could be “the best man on the day” at Paris.
Ingebrigtsen is one of the two best 1500/5000m of all time and I consider it a privilege to watch him race. All you want to do is post bullsh*t criticisms.
I think Cheruiyot was slowing, as he was running out of gas (unlike his exceptional effort in the earlier WC). Jakob had more in the tank at the end but it wasn't a kick like the examples I described above, which showed sudden and spectacular acceleration. That kind of finish isn't part of Jakob's toolkit.
My point is this (and I think Jakob would agree): What counts is who can kick hardest out of a sub 3.29 pace. And until now that clearly was Jakob in 2023. Pr date I think Kerr is the only threat to Jakob in such a pace (and I would be surprised if sub 3.29 won’t be the pace in Paris Olympics) -Saturday’s race showed that Kerr is up to it. But the question may also be: Is Kerr up to a better finish (than Jakob) if the latter makes the pace sub 3.28..?
I think the speed on the home straight in a fast race will be decided by how strong each runner is overall (not 800m pb) and how much energy he has spent during the first 1400m. If the Olympics mirrors Josh’s and Jakob’s racing in the WC 2023 (Jakob more in the front, Josh running wider bends) but goes slightly faster I think it’s advantage Jakob (him having a capacity of 3.26.5, Josh 3.27.5) -the latter will then sprint away on the home straight… (So the question is first and foremost this, IMO: Will Jakob reach 3.26.5 fitness, and Josh 3.27.5!?). And for the record: Nobody shows sudden and spectacular speed on the home straight in a (such) fast race!
“I think the speed on the home straight in a fast race will be decided by how strong each runner is overall (not 800m pb) and how much energy he has spent during the first 1400m.”
Holy sh*t! Anyone that’s ever stepped foot on a track, knows that.
I think Cheruiyot was slowing, as he was running out of gas (unlike his exceptional effort in the earlier WC). Jakob had more in the tank at the end but it wasn't a kick like the examples I described above, which showed sudden and spectacular acceleration. That kind of finish isn't part of Jakob's toolkit.
We all know you hate Jakob but this one is really not arguable. He set the early pace, smartly drafted off of Tim, then unleashed a killer kick to destroy the field and set an Olympic Record. His kick in the last 2 WC’s can be fairly criticized and it’s definitely an issue leading to Paris. But on that day he had it all working.
You guys haven't been around very long. Jakob doesn't have a kick in any way comparable to Snell, Ryun, or Coe. Cheruiyot had run his race so it didn't take much for Jakob with his greater endurance to get past him. But any great kicker on Jakob's shoulder would have taken him. Wightman and Kerr aren't in the league of those I mentioned and they could.
The first question of this thread should have been: What is the cost of air resistance at 3:30 1500m pace?
Air resistance (and the benefit of drafting) increases the faster you go, and the more windy it is. Does anyone know the energy savings of drafting at 3:30 pace for 1350m in, let’s say, 7mph winds? Let’s say it’s 2.3s. Excluding mental benefits of drafting, Jakob has to be at least 2.3s better than everyone to lead wire to wire. (I completely made up 2.3s and have no idea what it is, but it’s the most important question).
Your reasoning here seems to be very valid if we analyse how Nuguse got a big pb in the Bowerman mile 2023, and nearly beat Jakob…
But what about these two examples: Rudisha front run win in 2012 Olympics? And Centros from the front in Oly 2016?
I think Cheruiyot was slowing, as he was running out of gas (unlike his exceptional effort in the earlier WC). Jakob had more in the tank at the end but it wasn't a kick like the examples I described above, which showed sudden and spectacular acceleration. That kind of finish isn't part of Jakob's toolkit.
My point is this (and I think Jakob would agree): What counts is who can kick hardest out of a sub 3.29 pace. And until now that clearly was Jakob in 2023. Pr date I think Kerr is the only threat to Jakob in such a pace (and I would be surprised if sub 3.29 won’t be the pace in Paris Olympics) -Saturday’s race showed that Kerr is up to it. But the question may also be: Is Kerr up to a better finish (than Jakob) if the latter makes the pace sub 3.28..?
I think the speed on the home straight in a fast race will be decided by how strong each runner is overall (not 800m pb) and how much energy he has spent during the first 1400m. If the Olympics mirrors Josh’s and Jakob’s racing in the WC 2023 (Jakob more in the front, Josh running wider bends) but goes slightly faster I think it’s advantage Jakob (him having a capacity of 3.26.5, Josh 3.27.5) -the latter will then sprint away on the home straight… (So the question is first and foremost this, IMO: Will Jakob reach 3.26.5 fitness, and Josh 3.27.5!?). And for the record: Nobody shows sudden and spectacular speed on the home straight in a (such) fast race!
You miss the point about what makes a great kick. It comes when all the runners are pushed to their limits at the finish and it doesn't matter whether it has been a fast run from the gun or fast over the last two laps. In the home straight everyone is flat out but the great kickers have another gear that their competition can't match. Coe at Moscow showed that. Jakob doesn't have that gear.
“I think the speed on the home straight in a fast race will be decided by how strong each runner is overall (not 800m pb) and how much energy he has spent during the first 1400m.”
Holy sh*t! Anyone that’s ever stepped foot on a track, knows that.
Yes, but nevertheless guys like Cram, Kerr and Wightman (and multiple posters here) say something else, so I think my sayings were called for (even if Jakob says the same, as I wrote here, all the time)…
This post was edited 3 minutes after it was posted.
I think Cheruiyot was slowing, as he was running out of gas (unlike his exceptional effort in the earlier WC). Jakob had more in the tank at the end but it wasn't a kick like the examples I described above, which showed sudden and spectacular acceleration. That kind of finish isn't part of Jakob's toolkit.
He only got beat by one guy in both WC 1500 meters had outstanding kicks in his 5000m wins. I bet that in your prime, couldn’t have broken 90 off of 6:00 pace.
Outside of LR, your Joliet Jake analogy is one of the dumbest I’ve ever seen.
You fans are actually fantasists. I've watched decades of great 1500 runners. Jakob has less of a kick than any of them. His weapon is his endurance.
But just as Joliet Jake was great with excuses, so is Jakob and his fanatical fans.
He only got beat by one guy in both WC 1500 meters had outstanding kicks in his 5000m wins. I bet that in your prime, couldn’t have broken 90 off of 6:00 pace.
Outside of LR, your Joliet Jake analogy is one of the dumbest I’ve ever seen.
You fans are actually fantasists. I've watched decades of great 1500 runners. Jakob has less of a kick than any of them. His weapon is his endurance.
But just as Joliet Jake was great with excuses, so is Jakob and his fanatical fans.
Why wouldn’t someone be a fan of one of the two greatest 1500/5000m runners of all-time? You don’t like sports?
Your constant posts about doping are tiresome, but you seem intelligent on some of the other threads. Your reference to a character in a movie I’ve never watched, is pure idiocy. Why do you have such disrespect for such an outstanding runner? Would you rather have a guy that that can’t break 3:30, but that has a personality you like, run in place of Ingebrigtsen?
All these negative comments about Jakob are bullsh*t, and if he wins the 1500m in Paris, he will be right, and every single one of you will be wrong.