Add time for the EPO adjustment and you are right back where you started.
Athletes improve over time in every sport; Track included.
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53
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Wwwwww wrote:
Now do the EPO adjusted list….
Ok, everyone gets banned - including your hero cheat shoe slubs.
22 -
whid wrote:
Do Mondo vs. cinder track conversion next. Then go ahead and do a pre-super shoe spike vs. leather shoe spike all-time list conversion. Finally, combine it all together to do a cinder track & leather shoe vs super shoe mondo track conversion and then... well you get my point. The conversions you did may be accurate (idk personally, but they seem reasonable) but there's an ad infinitum element to these conversion that makes it arbitrary to stop at just super shoe to non super shoe conversion. Unless this was just for fun I'm not sure if there's otherwise a meaningful conclusion that this is supposed to show
All absolute BS! There has never been an improvement in distance times like there has been since the emergence of cheat shoes. Remember when mondo was introduced and all the distance records got immediately obliterated? Yeah, me neither - because it didn’t happen. Blah blah synthetic vs. cinder - bla blah leather spikes. Blah blah gatorade. Now throw in the bloated lists we’ve seen the last few years and there is no comparison. Might as well allow anything now. Unpopular opinion: times haven’t improved since the first cheat shoe jump in 2021.
88 -
What formula are you using for this conversion?
00 -
_ wrote:
What formula are you using for this conversion?
He's using "feels"
60 -
incorriguble wrote:
_ wrote:
What formula are you using for this conversion?
He's using "feels"
.9875 X 5k time
00 -
StatsGuy327 wrote:
Going to keep adding to this thread.
US Men 5000m All Conditions (Super Shoe Adjusted):
1. Bernard Lagat (2011 Monaco) - 12:43.94 (adjusted)
2. Chris Solinsky (2010 Stockholm) - 12:45.84 (adjusted)
3. Dathan Ritzenhein (2009 Zurich) - 12:46.57 (adjusted)
4. Grant Fisher (2022 Brussels) - 12:46.96
5. Paul Chelimo (2018 Brussels) - 12:47.84 (adjusted)
6. Bob Kennedy (1997 Zurch) - 12:48.49 (adjusted)
7. Matt Tegenkamp (2009 Brussels) - 12:48.83 (adjusted)
8. Galen Rupp (2012 Eugene) - 12:49.17 (adjusted)
9. Sydney Maree (1985 Oslo) - 12:51.39 (adjusted)
10. Woody Kincaid (2023 Boston) - 12:51.61
11. Evan Jager (2013 Brussels) - 12:52.62 (adjusted)
12. Ben True (2014 Palo Alto) - 12:52.96 (adjusted)
13. Hassan Mead (2014 Palo Alto) - 12:53.02 (adjusted)
14. Cooper Teare (2024 Los Angeles) - 12:54.72
15. Joe Klecker (2023 Boston) - 12:54.99
16. Ryan Hill (2015 Brussels) - 12:55.87 (adjusted)
17. Eric Jenkins (2017 Boston) - 12:56.00 (adjusted)
18. Nico Young (2024 Boston) - 12:57.14
19. Chris Derrick (2013 Brussels) - 12:58.19 (adjusted)
20. Lopez Lomong (2020 Portland) - 12:58.78
21. Cole Hocker (2024 Los Angeles) - 12:58.82
22. Adam Goucher (2006 Huesden) - 13:00.13 (adjusted)
23. Matthew Centrowitz (2019 Beaverton) - 13:00.39
24. Emmanuel Bor (2022 Boston) - 13:00.48
25. Alan Webb (2005 Berlin) - 13:00.98 (adjusted)
Not as much as you think. It's mostly people are training better
28 -
StatsGuy327 wrote:
incorriguble wrote:
He's using "feels"
.9875 X 5k time
Why?
40 -
Hvvnn wrote:
whid wrote:
Do Mondo vs. cinder track conversion next. Then go ahead and do a pre-super shoe spike vs. leather shoe spike all-time list conversion. Finally, combine it all together to do a cinder track & leather shoe vs super shoe mondo track conversion and then... well you get my point. The conversions you did may be accurate (idk personally, but they seem reasonable) but there's an ad infinitum element to these conversion that makes it arbitrary to stop at just super shoe to non super shoe conversion. Unless this was just for fun I'm not sure if there's otherwise a meaningful conclusion that this is supposed to show
All absolute BS! There has never been an improvement in distance times like there has been since the emergence of cheat shoes. Remember when mondo was introduced and all the distance records got immediately obliterated? Yeah, me neither - because it didn’t happen. Blah blah synthetic vs. cinder - bla blah leather spikes. Blah blah gatorade. Now throw in the bloated lists we’ve seen the last few years and there is no comparison. Might as well allow anything now. Unpopular opinion: times haven’t improved since the first cheat shoe jump in 2021.
Remember EPO when we went from 12:58 to 12:37 in a couple years? Same thing with the 10k. And when everyone started running sub 3:30?
40 -
How is Fisher better in "every metric"? Other than their PRs (which is the whole point of the post) their resumes are fairly similar. I'd classify them as guys who could mix it up with the best in the world, but ultimately finish off the podium in global championships. 2010 Solinsky would have been in the same range, but lacked Fisher and Dathan's sustained peak.
Of course that could change for Grant in the next few years.
212 -
altitude_hermit wrote:
How is Fisher better in "every metric"? Other than their PRs (which is the whole point of the post) their resumes are fairly similar. I'd classify them as guys who could mix it up with the best in the world, but ultimately finish off the podium in global championships. 2010 Solinsky would have been in the same range, but lacked Fisher and Dathan's sustained peak.
Of course that could change for Grant in the next few years.
Fisher has finished 4th, 5th and 6th (stepped on rail, nearly fell) in global track champs. He has three top-3 finishes at DL events.
Dathan's highest finish in a global track champs was a distant 6th. He had one top 3-finish in a DL event.
So if you apply a 5-6.5s correction, Dathan is a 12:50-1 guy at his peak. Seems about right to me. Even in his awesome 2009 5K PB, he was outkicked pretty definitively by Edwin Soi. Soi is a very similar runner to Jacob Krop (maybe a tad inferior to him), who is marginally better than Grant Fisher and outkicked him in his PB race.This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.100 -
Ronald MacDonald won the 1898 Boston Marathon in 2:42 (look it up), probably wearing big old clown shoes, so 1:34. It was only 25 miles then, so maybe 1:38
10 -
THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:
altitude_hermit wrote:
How is Fisher better in "every metric"? Other than their PRs (which is the whole point of the post) their resumes are fairly similar. I'd classify them as guys who could mix it up with the best in the world, but ultimately finish off the podium in global championships. 2010 Solinsky would have been in the same range, but lacked Fisher and Dathan's sustained peak.
Of course that could change for Grant in the next few years.
Fisher has finished 4th, 5th and 6th (stepped on rail, nearly fell) in global track champs. He has three top-3 finishes at DL events.
Dathan's highest finish in a global track champs was a distant 6th. He had one top 3-finish in a DL event.
So if you apply a 5-6.5s correction, Dathan is a 12:50-1 guy at his peak. Seems about right to me. Even in his awesome 2009 5K PB, he was outkicked pretty definitively by Edwin Soi. Soi is a very similar runner to Jacob Krop (maybe a tad inferior to him), who is marginally better than Grant Fisher and outkicked him in his PB race.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Thank you. The fact that this is even a debate is insane. Runners from previous eras are hyped up to an insane degree on these boards.
I mean you have ERIC JENKINS listed as being in comparable if slightly better fitness to Nico Young. May I remind you that Nico Young is an American born collegiate who just ran 26:52 (!!!) outkicking an Olympic medallist in the process? Do people realize how insane that is? 12:57 for Nico Young is a comparable time to previous eras. The whining about shoes is just getting old at this point. These young runners are actually just better now, in most cases. They are GLOBALLY competitive. Guys like True, Solinsky, and even Ritz never were.
173 -
snowflakes wrote:
Supershoes have zero effect on 5000m performances. And even if they did, they would be balanced by the amount of drugs taken back then.
Why does everyone wear them then?
64 -
round and round wrote:
snowflakes wrote:
Supershoes have zero effect on 5000m performances. And even if they did, they would be balanced by the amount of drugs taken back then.
Why does everyone wear them then?
They are better shoes. They are not 2.5% better over the 5k distance. That's insane. Even if they were only 0.1% better, athletes would wear them preferentially. Besides, you cannot buy the old spikes anymore, so it is a moot point.
95 -
StatsGuy327 wrote:
Going to keep adding to this thread.
US Men 5000m All Conditions (Super Shoe Adjusted):
1. Bernard Lagat (2011 Monaco) - 12:43.94 (adjusted)
2. Chris Solinsky (2010 Stockholm) - 12:45.84 (adjusted)
3. Dathan Ritzenhein (2009 Zurich) - 12:46.57 (adjusted)
4. Grant Fisher (2022 Brussels) - 12:46.96
5. Paul Chelimo (2018 Brussels) - 12:47.84 (adjusted)
6. Bob Kennedy (1997 Zurch) - 12:48.49 (adjusted)
7. Matt Tegenkamp (2009 Brussels) - 12:48.83 (adjusted)
8. Galen Rupp (2012 Eugene) - 12:49.17 (adjusted)
9. Sydney Maree (1985 Oslo) - 12:51.39 (adjusted)
10. Woody Kincaid (2023 Boston) - 12:51.61
11. Evan Jager (2013 Brussels) - 12:52.62 (adjusted)
12. Ben True (2014 Palo Alto) - 12:52.96 (adjusted)
13. Hassan Mead (2014 Palo Alto) - 12:53.02 (adjusted)
14. Cooper Teare (2024 Los Angeles) - 12:54.72
15. Joe Klecker (2023 Boston) - 12:54.99
16. Ryan Hill (2015 Brussels) - 12:55.87 (adjusted)
17. Eric Jenkins (2017 Boston) - 12:56.00 (adjusted)
18. Nico Young (2024 Boston) - 12:57.14
19. Chris Derrick (2013 Brussels) - 12:58.19 (adjusted)
20. Lopez Lomong (2020 Portland) - 12:58.78
21. Cole Hocker (2024 Los Angeles) - 12:58.82
22. Adam Goucher (2006 Huesden) - 13:00.13 (adjusted)
23. Matthew Centrowitz (2019 Beaverton) - 13:00.39
24. Emmanuel Bor (2022 Boston) - 13:00.48
25. Alan Webb (2005 Berlin) - 13:00.98 (adjusted)
Show the peer-reviewed study that provides data to make these conversions and I'm on board.
33 -
Wwwwww wrote:
Hvvnn wrote:
All absolute BS! There has never been an improvement in distance times like there has been since the emergence of cheat shoes. Remember when mondo was introduced and all the distance records got immediately obliterated? Yeah, me neither - because it didn’t happen. Blah blah synthetic vs. cinder - bla blah leather spikes. Blah blah gatorade. Now throw in the bloated lists we’ve seen the last few years and there is no comparison. Might as well allow anything now. Unpopular opinion: times haven’t improved since the first cheat shoe jump in 2021.
Remember EPO when we went from 12:58 to 12:37 in a couple years? Same thing with the 10k. And when everyone started running sub 3:30?
What’s the difference? Cheat shoes are allowed. Might as well allow epo and anything else. Cheat shoe defenders talk as if everyone racing now is clean. Ha! There are no more clean runners now than there were 20 years ago. In fact, I would argue the exact opposite. Shoes have gotten better and so have pharmaceuticals. At least 20 years ago sub 4 meant something. Track is dead. It’s a clown show at best.
24 -
incorriguble wrote:
round and round wrote:
Why does everyone wear them then?
They are better shoes. They are not 2.5% better over the 5k distance. That's insane. Even if they were only 0.1% better, athletes would wear them preferentially. Besides, you cannot buy the old spikes anymore, so it is a moot point.
Of course they’re better. 15 seconds in a 14:00 5000 with zero additional effort. I’d be wearing them too. Don’t kid yourself - you’re not shelling out $200 for nothing.
27 -
Hvvnn wrote:
incorriguble wrote:
They are better shoes. They are not 2.5% better over the 5k distance. That's insane. Even if they were only 0.1% better, athletes would wear them preferentially. Besides, you cannot buy the old spikes anymore, so it is a moot point.
Of course they’re better. 15 seconds in a 14:00 5000 with zero additional effort. I’d be wearing them too. Don’t kid yourself - you’re not shelling out $200 for nothing.
Ha, delusional. Yep, Eric Jenkins is a better talent than Nico Young. Makes sense
91 -
incorriguble wrote:
THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:
Fisher has finished 4th, 5th and 6th (stepped on rail, nearly fell) in global track champs. He has three top-3 finishes at DL events.
Dathan's highest finish in a global track champs was a distant 6th. He had one top 3-finish in a DL event.
So if you apply a 5-6.5s correction, Dathan is a 12:50-1 guy at his peak. Seems about right to me. Even in his awesome 2009 5K PB, he was outkicked pretty definitively by Edwin Soi. Soi is a very similar runner to Jacob Krop (maybe a tad inferior to him), who is marginally better than Grant Fisher and outkicked him in his PB race.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Thank you. The fact that this is even a debate is insane. Runners from previous eras are hyped up to an insane degree on these boards.
I mean you have ERIC JENKINS listed as being in comparable if slightly better fitness to Nico Young. May I remind you that Nico Young is an American born collegiate who just ran 26:52 (!!!) outkicking an Olympic medallist in the process? Do people realize how insane that is? 12:57 for Nico Young is a comparable time to previous eras. The whining about shoes is just getting old at this point. These young runners are actually just better now, in most cases. They are GLOBALLY competitive. Guys like True, Solinsky, and even Ritz never were.
This thread played a big role in the WTW that was just published:
Talk to any college coach who is coaching right now who coached in both eras and they'll tell you the shoes make a MASSIVE difference.
We can quibble a second or two on the times but I think overall it gets the talent levels about right. It makes sense for a former world champ to be #1. It also makes total sense for Kennedy, Ritz and Fisher to be very similar as they were all superstars in HS xc.. For Centro and Webb to be near each other, etc.
Bob Kennedy certainly would be very competitive in this era. Dude won NCAA xc as a freshman. Won NCAA 1500 title as a sophomore. Had the lead in the Olympic 5000 in the during final 800 in 1996. Fisher probably has better coaching than Kennedy but the talent levels are VERY similar.
Somone actually thinks Nico Young's 26:52 is better than Solinky's 26:59? I don't. Yes Young is better than Solinksy was in college (but he's also at altitude and training like a pro) but a 26:59 back then is better than 26:52 now. In that 26:59 race, let me remind you that Solinsky absolutely destroyed Rupp who's triple the year before at NCAA indoors was certainly more legendary that Young's super impressive NCAAs this year. And Rupp had had finished 8th at Worlds the pervoius year. RItz, he was never healthy. Ritz OWNED Webb and Hall in HS. Hall is better than any and all US marathoners right now without super shoes. Webb ran 3:46 in the GD mile without super shoes.
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