Grant Fisher on Let's Run. EPIC Interview

Tall Tree wrote:

Epic interview.

So much insight from Grant Fisher. Wish I could articulate thoughts and feelings half as well as he can.

After listening and doing my best to absorb all that he said, it is clear he is is own Man. He exuded enthusiasm and steely-eyed focus on what he feels he needs to do to be on the podium.

It is little wonder that Grant wants to create a training and racing system around himself when taking into account his educational background centered around data, coding, risk assessment, optimization of results based on such.

His new coach isn’t new to Grant. As Grant stated, he and his coach are working together in a collaborative environment built on years of trust and success when they worked together in High School. That kind of relationship doesn’t go dormant as I am sure they have kept in close contact through his University and BTC days.

Incorporating science (LT training) as Grant stated is something that he understands and is learning more about. His coach (Mike) had him doing that kind of training in High School. Perhaps that is why Grant performed so well off of such low mileage. It was also interesting and very telling when Grant spoke about his University training being very conservative. That Chris Miltenberg held him back and focused on Grants long term development beyond University. Grant is an incredible talent and thankfully those two guys recognized that and didn’t try and squeeze more out of him during those years.

Grant also used the words happy and stress several times. Sounds like he is very happy in his current set up and doesn’t have the stress of being in an environment that changed and wasn’t best suited for his future.

Wishing him the best and looking forward to seeing him on the podium in Paris.

skinnbones wrote:

Quite a bit here. I hope I hit the major points in this response:

1. What would a typical weekly structure look like a few weeks away from racing i.e. is it a Tuesday and Friday workout day and Sunday harder long run or do you rotate days with more or less rest between. What do the other days look like?

In preparation for a racing block, Grant goes to a 10 day schedule (Jerry does this and Grant likes it so we are doing it). The weeks are fairly simple and include the basic building blocks for a standard training plan: tempo day, VO2 max day, and a specific speed day. For pros, this is typical. For younger runners, it is NOT typical. I'm a big fan of tempo running and not a big fan of specific speed days (for younger athletes).

On easy days, Grant is responsible to make sure he's ready for the next session. I do not dictate pace or distance on the easy days for him at all. In general, I dictate distance, speed, and surface for all my younger guys but Grant is well past the point of knowing what he needs to do to recover and be ready to go for the next aggressive day.

2. Given the success Grant indicated in the long 10 mile tempos, will you still incorporate this throughout a training block or are they dropped for replacements like 5 mile tempo in morning and broken tempo work in the afternoon. In this context i am referring to a tempo as threshold which i assume is either marathon or half marathon paced efforts supported by lactate testing.

This is a training philosophy question. I believe that tempo effort is very specific so you can't actually get a tempo effort for the full 10 continuous miles (unless you slow down quite a bit). If you think about pacing, and you get up to 'tempo' effort 4-5 minutes into a run, you can hold it there for a pretty long period of time. However, lactate 'creeps' as you fatigue. So, at 30 minutes at the same pace you started, your body is now working at tempo+XX effort. And at 9 miles, your body is working at tempo+YYY effort. So you have two choices, run too slow at the beginning (somewhere in the 2.5-3.0 range) or slow down after you get up around 30-35 minutes.

So, we do not do this. We run at tempo effort for as long as possible. We may have to take breaks to accomplish this and altitude also weighs in heavily on the energy effort so you have to consider that as well. It is not unusual for us to run 4-5 miles tempo though. But we have not done 10 yet. I believe that would require testing every 10 minutes after 25 minutes to remain in the proper tempo range.

3. What are your thoughts on straight tempo running such as 4, 6, 8 or 10 mile tempo intervals, in comparison to broken up tempo running like 5 x 5 minutes of 3-5 x 2 miles with some recovery in between.

Younger runners CANNOT run long tempos. Their brains are just not ready for proper running for 8-10 miles. So, with younger guys, I never do this. More advanced guys and pros, I don't mind going 11-12 miles in one day of tempo type work but it has to be specified (2.5? 3.5? 4.0?) so we stay true to our plan. And we will split that into two sessions. Runners habitually train too hard on tempo runs. That's why a lactate testing device works so well. You can prove that they need to slow down.

4. Do you incorporate steady running in a weekly training plan, in addition to workouts and recovery easy running.

This is a GREAT question. It suggests 'double T days' or whatever the new buzzword is for doubles at a pace faster than recovery. The answer is yes. We do this often. When we do it, we never focus on the same type effort twice in the same day. So, if we train at 4.0mmL in the morning, we do not target 4.0mmL in the afternoon. And the session will not match the morning session. For example, if we go 2M repeats in the morning, we may go 2:00 repeats in the afternoon. Both with very little rest so the pace is mild and the rest is almost non-existent. And we will adjust on the fly. Right in the middle of the workout. If Grant's working too hard, we slow down, NOW. If Grant is running too easy or he is absorbing the training (and needs to increase velocity to get the same result we had a week ago), we speed up. On the very next interval. We use lactate often obviously and we pay close attention to it. It is by far the best indicator of effort so we use it.

Running UberNerd wrote:

skinnbones wrote:

Quite a bit here. I hope I hit the major points in this response:

1. What would a typical weekly structure look like a few weeks away from racing i.e. is it a Tuesday and Friday workout day and Sunday harder long run or do you rotate days with more or less rest between. What do the other days look like?

In preparation for a racing block, Grant goes to a 10 day schedule (Jerry does this and Grant likes it so we are doing it). The weeks are fairly simple and include the basic building blocks for a standard training plan: tempo day, VO2 max day, and a specific speed day. For pros, this is typical. For younger runners, it is NOT typical. I'm a big fan of tempo running and not a big fan of specific speed days (for younger athletes).

On easy days, Grant is responsible to make sure he's ready for the next session. I do not dictate pace or distance on the easy days for him at all. In general, I dictate distance, speed, and surface for all my younger guys but Grant is well past the point of knowing what he needs to do to recover and be ready to go for the next aggressive day.

2. Given the success Grant indicated in the long 10 mile tempos, will you still incorporate this throughout a training block or are they dropped for replacements like 5 mile tempo in morning and broken tempo work in the afternoon. In this context i am referring to a tempo as threshold which i assume is either marathon or half marathon paced efforts supported by lactate testing.

This is a training philosophy question. I believe that tempo effort is very specific so you can't actually get a tempo effort for the full 10 continuous miles (unless you slow down quite a bit). If you think about pacing, and you get up to 'tempo' effort 4-5 minutes into a run, you can hold it there for a pretty long period of time. However, lactate 'creeps' as you fatigue. So, at 30 minutes at the same pace you started, your body is now working at tempo+XX effort. And at 9 miles, your body is working at tempo+YYY effort. So you have two choices, run too slow at the beginning (somewhere in the 2.5-3.0 range) or slow down after you get up around 30-35 minutes.

So, we do not do this. We run at tempo effort for as long as possible. We may have to take breaks to accomplish this and altitude also weighs in heavily on the energy effort so you have to consider that as well. It is not unusual for us to run 4-5 miles tempo though. But we have not done 10 yet. I believe that would require testing every 10 minutes after 25 minutes to remain in the proper tempo range.

3. What are your thoughts on straight tempo running such as 4, 6, 8 or 10 mile tempo intervals, in comparison to broken up tempo running like 5 x 5 minutes of 3-5 x 2 miles with some recovery in between.

Younger runners CANNOT run long tempos. Their brains are just not ready for proper running for 8-10 miles. So, with younger guys, I never do this. More advanced guys and pros, I don't mind going 11-12 miles in one day of tempo type work but it has to be specified (2.5? 3.5? 4.0?) so we stay true to our plan. And we will split that into two sessions. Runners habitually train too hard on tempo runs. That's why a lactate testing device works so well. You can prove that they need to slow down.

4. Do you incorporate steady running in a weekly training plan, in addition to workouts and recovery easy running.

This is a GREAT question. It suggests 'double T days' or whatever the new buzzword is for doubles at a pace faster than recovery. The answer is yes. We do this often. When we do it, we never focus on the same type effort twice in the same day. So, if we train at 4.0mmL in the morning, we do not target 4.0mmL in the afternoon. And the session will not match the morning session. For example, if we go 2M repeats in the morning, we may go 2:00 repeats in the afternoon. Both with very little rest so the pace is mild and the rest is almost non-existent. And we will adjust on the fly. Right in the middle of the workout. If Grant's working too hard, we slow down, NOW. If Grant is running too easy or he is absorbing the training (and needs to increase velocity to get the same result we had a week ago), we speed up. On the very next interval. We use lactate often obviously and we pay close attention to it. It is by far the best indicator of effort so we use it.

By your comment that 2.5-3.0 mmol/l is “too slow,” is it correct to assume that you more typically target 4.0 mmol/l for threshold sessions as opposed to the 2.3-3.0 that Bakken believes is optimal?

MI Strong wrote:

The Original Poster wrote:

I'm sort of curious about why Grant would pick Park City over Flagstaff when you can be in Flagstaff year round but have to leave Park City to go to Flagstaff in the winter. His coach is also closer to Flagstaff.

I think flying a coach from Phoenix to Park City multiple times a week to watch one runner work out is excessive and an unnecessary burden on the environment. It is unfortunate that this seems to be the norm in our sport. Professional running is relatively low impact compared to other professional sports and maybe this practice is something we can live with.

Saying that, I thought the interview was great.

Having spent time in both Park City and Flagstaff, there is no comparison from a livability standpoint. They are comparable from a training standpoint but IMO Park City is better.

Grant spoke about his training location flexibility. He was in PC, now that the snow has come he is in Flag and when needed Phoenix. He knows what he is doing.

Your comment about “Burden on the environment” was a big stretch.

Running UberNerd wrote:

Jgt11 wrote:

2.3-3 is what was optimal for Bakken, different people have different lactate levels at their threshold.

"The lactate threshold ranges from 3.0 mmol/l to 4.5 mmol/l on the Aekray meter. If you are a typical long-distance runner, you will be close to 3.0 (from 4.0 to 3.0) and as a middle-distance type usually closer to 4.5"

quote is from Bakken's website

I don't necessarily disagree with this. But I think my prior question is something that would be of interest for many athletes/coaches who test lactate. Bakken wrote:

"I soon found out that lowering the lactate level from the standard level of 4.0 mmol/l down initially to below 3.0 – usually staying from 2.3 up to 3.0 on sessions gave not only far better results, you could also do huge amounts of “threshold training” – substantially more versus a level of close to 4.0, without wearing down."

It appears that Mr. Scannell also takes lots of lactate tests. I'm curious, and I think many other people would be as well, how Mr. Scannell approaches testing. Does he have a range that he considers optimal? Does it vary by workout? Does he target certain workouts at certain ranges and others at different ranges? Or is it usually centered around 4.0 mmol/l? My point is not that Bakken is right or that anyone else is wrong. I'm curious how an experienced and accomplished coach who appears to be coming from a slightly different angle tests lactate.

Running UberNerd wrote:

Jgt11 wrote:

2.3-3 is what was optimal for Bakken, different people have different lactate levels at their threshold.

"The lactate threshold ranges from 3.0 mmol/l to 4.5 mmol/l on the Aekray meter. If you are a typical long-distance runner, you will be close to 3.0 (from 4.0 to 3.0) and as a middle-distance type usually closer to 4.5"

quote is from Bakken's website

I don't necessarily disagree with this. But I think my prior question is something that would be of interest for many athletes/coaches who test lactate. Bakken wrote:

"I soon found out that lowering the lactate level from the standard level of 4.0 mmol/l down initially to below 3.0 – usually staying from 2.3 up to 3.0 on sessions gave not only far better results, you could also do huge amounts of “threshold training” – substantially more versus a level of close to 4.0, without wearing down."

It appears that Mr. Scannell also takes lots of lactate tests. I'm curious, and I think many other people would be as well, how Mr. Scannell approaches testing. Does he have a range that he considers optimal? Does it vary by workout? Does he target certain workouts at certain ranges and others at different ranges? Or is it usually centered around 4.0 mmol/l? My point is not that Bakken is right or that anyone else is wrong. I'm curious how an experienced and accomplished coach who appears to be coming from a slightly different angle tests lactate.

skinnbones wrote:

Quite a bit here. I hope I hit the major points in this response:

1. What would a typical weekly structure look like a few weeks away from racing i.e. is it a Tuesday and Friday workout day and Sunday harder long run or do you rotate days with more or less rest between. What do the other days look like?

In preparation for a racing block, Grant goes to a 10 day schedule (Jerry does this and Grant likes it so we are doing it). The weeks are fairly simple and include the basic building blocks for a standard training plan: tempo day, VO2 max day, and a specific speed day. For pros, this is typical. For younger runners, it is NOT typical. I'm a big fan of tempo running and not a big fan of specific speed days (for younger athletes).

On easy days, Grant is responsible to make sure he's ready for the next session. I do not dictate pace or distance on the easy days for him at all. In general, I dictate distance, speed, and surface for all my younger guys but Grant is well past the point of knowing what he needs to do to recover and be ready to go for the next aggressive day.

2. Given the success Grant indicated in the long 10 mile tempos, will you still incorporate this throughout a training block or are they dropped for replacements like 5 mile tempo in morning and broken tempo work in the afternoon. In this context i am referring to a tempo as threshold which i assume is either marathon or half marathon paced efforts supported by lactate testing.

This is a training philosophy question. I believe that tempo effort is very specific so you can't actually get a tempo effort for the full 10 continuous miles (unless you slow down quite a bit). If you think about pacing, and you get up to 'tempo' effort 4-5 minutes into a run, you can hold it there for a pretty long period of time. However, lactate 'creeps' as you fatigue. So, at 30 minutes at the same pace you started, your body is now working at tempo+XX effort. And at 9 miles, your body is working at tempo+YYY effort. So you have two choices, run too slow at the beginning (somewhere in the 2.5-3.0 range) or slow down after you get up around 30-35 minutes.

So, we do not do this. We run at tempo effort for as long as possible. We may have to take breaks to accomplish this and altitude also weighs in heavily on the energy effort so you have to consider that as well. It is not unusual for us to run 4-5 miles tempo though. But we have not done 10 yet. I believe that would require testing every 10 minutes after 25 minutes to remain in the proper tempo range.

3. What are your thoughts on straight tempo running such as 4, 6, 8 or 10 mile tempo intervals, in comparison to broken up tempo running like 5 x 5 minutes of 3-5 x 2 miles with some recovery in between.

Younger runners CANNOT run long tempos. Their brains are just not ready for proper running for 8-10 miles. So, with younger guys, I never do this. More advanced guys and pros, I don't mind going 11-12 miles in one day of tempo type work but it has to be specified (2.5? 3.5? 4.0?) so we stay true to our plan. And we will split that into two sessions. Runners habitually train too hard on tempo runs. That's why a lactate testing device works so well. You can prove that they need to slow down.

4. Do you incorporate steady running in a weekly training plan, in addition to workouts and recovery easy running.

This is a GREAT question. It suggests 'double T days' or whatever the new buzzword is for doubles at a pace faster than recovery. The answer is yes. We do this often. When we do it, we never focus on the same type effort twice in the same day. So, if we train at 4.0mmL in the morning, we do not target 4.0mmL in the afternoon. And the session will not match the morning session. For example, if we go 2M repeats in the morning, we may go 2:00 repeats in the afternoon. Both with very little rest so the pace is mild and the rest is almost non-existent. And we will adjust on the fly. Right in the middle of the workout. If Grant's working too hard, we slow down, NOW. If Grant is running too easy or he is absorbing the training (and needs to increase velocity to get the same result we had a week ago), we speed up. On the very next interval. We use lactate often obviously and we pay close attention to it. It is by far the best indicator of effort so we use it.