i also find it hard to believe a 20 min 5k person is actually fussing over the supposed tweener nature of their practice schedule. it's a sophisticated complaint for an unsophisticated output. like a JV or rec soccer player arguing about whether the coach does actual conditioning or just sees running as incorporated into the practice structure and playing of soccer. which is a pro or high level college complaint.
I don’t understand why you’re convinced this is a troll post: nothing about it is funny, over-the-top, controversial or unbelievable—but you’re flirting with a good answer to the OP’s quandary here. “It’s a sophisticated complaint for an unsophisticated output.” It seems like the OP is too concerned with training guidelines he’s read on LetsRun/elsewhere and seriously overthinking it for his ability and, more importantly, his experience level. OP says he wants to make up for having not run in high school, but the fact is so many of us started out as 14 year olds running “too fast” in practice to keep up with the upperclassmen before we even thought about calculated training. And with all respect to the OP, 7:40 is slow enough that there’s a good chance that running that pace 2-3 days/week might very well be more beneficial than dinking around at 8:30 pace as a healthy 20ish year old male.
Even though I fed the troll myself, I can see where the vit is coming from. Nobody who has spent enough time browsing letsrun to pick up the vernacular and knows enough about training methodology to reference zones would come to any other conclusion that the best way to get better at running is to run more. Which means either this guy is a troll or isn't serious enough about getting better to do the work.
I don’t understand why you’re convinced this is a troll post: nothing about it is funny, over-the-top, controversial or unbelievable—but you’re flirting with a good answer to the OP’s quandary here. “It’s a sophisticated complaint for an unsophisticated output.” It seems like the OP is too concerned with training guidelines he’s read on LetsRun/elsewhere and seriously overthinking it for his ability and, more importantly, his experience level. OP says he wants to make up for having not run in high school, but the fact is so many of us started out as 14 year olds running “too fast” in practice to keep up with the upperclassmen before we even thought about calculated training. And with all respect to the OP, 7:40 is slow enough that there’s a good chance that running that pace 2-3 days/week might very well be more beneficial than dinking around at 8:30 pace as a healthy 20ish year old male.
Even though I fed the troll myself, I can see where the vit is coming from. Nobody who has spent enough time browsing letsrun to pick up the vernacular and knows enough about training methodology to reference zones would come to any other conclusion that the best way to get better at running is to run more. Which means either this guy is a troll or isn't serious enough about getting better to do the work.
Bro, this stuff in found from even the slightest bit of looking into running training. Is it all that unbelievable that a 20:30 5k runner could look into it and then post this and think that he's maybe overthinking stuff for where he's at?
Be thankful for what you got. Most friends I've run with start out about 30 seconds per mile too fast and slow down by 60seconds per mile by the end. They'll leave me behind if I don't make the effort to keep up with them but then I catch them by the end with my even effort.
my point is more specific than that. it's not just i kind of think the medicine for running 20 min times is run harder, it's the perjorative word choices (hobby jogger) and a beginner with mid-table times pretending to have a speedster's concern about training methods. unless i have a health response or slower times i could care less what the practice looks like. only a fairly veteran person sees the correlations. eg if you have been around awhile you know when your soccer coach is asking too much and then you notice everyone is getting hurt and you have a travel roster of 17 one game when you started out with 25.
but being concerned about a particular run being too fast for recovery as part of a training plan? noobs don't have that response. you don't even usually grasp what the purpose of the workouts is. you go run some miles at 7 min pace is what you get.
Even though I fed the troll myself, I can see where the vit is coming from. Nobody who has spent enough time browsing letsrun to pick up the vernacular and knows enough about training methodology to reference zones would come to any other conclusion that the best way to get better at running is to run more. Which means either this guy is a troll or isn't serious enough about getting better to do the work.
Bro, this stuff in found from even the slightest bit of looking into running training. Is it all that unbelievable that a 20:30 5k runner could look into it and then post this and think that he's maybe overthinking stuff for where he's at?
i don't buy that the response of a struggling midpack (for club) 20 min 5k runner with any ambitions is trying to figure ways out of workouts. when i was first getting started i bore down. i didn't go look up training plans and protest that the run that day was too fast for purposes. if i had a question it was my coach inconsistently allowed me a "soccer dispensation." ie whether i felt generally overworked. i was an honors student and i wasn't asking what the big picture point of the fartleks or whatever was we did that day, whether the pace was correct. if i felt exhausted i would loaf that day and let the pack run off.
to me it took a while to connect workouts to outcomes, and this isn't being oblivious, it's most noob XC people are too busy trying to keep up with the workout to question the premise. my first year it took a few weeks for the easy stuff to become easy.
sorry but i buy a noob questioning "how much" but not "why." they shouldn't know enough about their running, themselves, the sport/training to be asking serious runner questions. automatic skepticism, that plus self deprecation when i see college club runners doing 25s or 30s at 5k. when i was first starting XC i wouldn't have derided myself as a hobby jogger.
Bro, this stuff in found from even the slightest bit of looking into running training. Is it all that unbelievable that a 20:30 5k runner could look into it and then post this and think that he's maybe overthinking stuff for where he's at?
i don't buy that the response of a struggling midpack (for club) 20 min 5k runner with any ambitions is trying to figure ways out of workouts. when i was first getting started i bore down. i didn't go look up training plans and protest that the run that day was too fast for purposes. if i had a question it was my coach inconsistently allowed me a "soccer dispensation." ie whether i felt generally overworked. i was an honors student and i wasn't asking what the big picture point of the fartleks or whatever was we did that day, whether the pace was correct. if i felt exhausted i would loaf that day and let the pack run off.
to me it took a while to connect workouts to outcomes, and this isn't being oblivious, it's most noob XC people are too busy trying to keep up with the workout to question the premise. my first year it took a few weeks for the easy stuff to become easy.
sorry but i buy a noob questioning "how much" but not "why." they shouldn't know enough about their running, themselves, the sport/training to be asking serious runner questions. automatic skepticism, that plus self deprecation when i see college club runners doing 25s or 30s at 5k. when i was first starting XC i wouldn't have derided myself as a hobby jogger.
Maybe I've read too much letsrun for my level. This site is obsessed with "hobbyjoggers" I was using its lingo. Also "polarize your training" is one of the 1st things you see when you read about training. Is it that unbelievable that a person could have some previous consistency issues and also not be that seasoned, and know that you're "supposed to" do that while having some worry about a run that isn't polarized?
i just don't buy that like some 20 min runner sat down and was like oh the reason i ran 21 or 22 this week at BYU's club meet is that the run on wednesday was done x% too fast for someone of my PR. bull. at the beginning there were no easy days as i was a sprinter. it was all like, wow, used to be maybe you ran a mile for time. now it's 6 plus warmup laps and strides and such. and to be blunt i learned pretty quick you don't run with the 15-16 min people on the intervals or much of anything. the idea isn't drain the tank first mile. it's manage the tank to miles 2 and 3 and such. this is good for XC in general.
i also know if someone tells me this is an easy day and go at a light pace and i think their pace is too high having been licensed to go easy my buddies and i are splitting off and in fact going easy. did no one loaf that day? but this is an experienced response and not what a noob trying to go sub 20 does. nor do i think those days really make you faster. they are meant more to make you less tired. we'd do some days like that and some pool work. i loved pool work but that is designed to refresh the tank not bring the time down.
i think one reason i resist this is i don't buy the fast guys would go that fast on an easy day. if you told my XC team it was easy day we'd be off messing about in the trails/woods, we literally went in the sewers twice underground, jogged in the school in the AC, jogged around/through the band/drill team/football.
i also think most XC people would be working back from a result rather than complaining in the abstract about training. our expressions of how we felt were usually like i am tired, i feel good, this part hurts. not that easy run was 20 seconds too fast for someone of my speed. when i discuss the "soccer dispensation" i do so knowing what followed. my last year i lost the dispensation, got anemia, ran my slowest meet time ever. which, i can then explain in terms of poor diet meets more miles and pressure, as well as blood tests. i then ran my fastest split of any meet my last meet ever, as well as a decent time, having had plenty of rest. hmm i know what the culprit is.
i think part of it would be to me i am a gamer and i am only thinking about practice if i still feel my legs at the meet. otherwise, it's what are my meet times doing. if my times are going down practice is working. what do i care whether that run that one day was 20 seconds faster than it should be. i don't buy most runners have that mentality unless the meet gives them a reason to do so.
I guess it depends what kind of mileage you're doing. If it's in the lower range then you can probably get away with trash pace runs till you're ready to step up your mileage.
As far as why I even bother to try dropping my times to something that still wouldn't matter, it's fun. Right now I'm at "maybe age group podium in a smaller race depending on how strong the field is" level. Getting to "expect age group podium in small races and compete for age group winner or overall podium depending on the field" would be fun and no dumber than trying to win a local pickleball or golf tournament full of hobbyists.
This post was edited 8 minutes after it was posted.
i don't buy that the response of a struggling midpack (for club) 20 min 5k runner with any ambitions is trying to figure ways out of workouts. when i was first getting started i bore down. i didn't go look up training plans and protest that the run that day was too fast for purposes. if i had a question it was my coach inconsistently allowed me a "soccer dispensation." ie whether i felt generally overworked. i was an honors student and i wasn't asking what the big picture point of the fartleks or whatever was we did that day, whether the pace was correct. if i felt exhausted i would loaf that day and let the pack run off.
to me it took a while to connect workouts to outcomes, and this isn't being oblivious, it's most noob XC people are too busy trying to keep up with the workout to question the premise. my first year it took a few weeks for the easy stuff to become easy.
sorry but i buy a noob questioning "how much" but not "why." they shouldn't know enough about their running, themselves, the sport/training to be asking serious runner questions. automatic skepticism, that plus self deprecation when i see college club runners doing 25s or 30s at 5k. when i was first starting XC i wouldn't have derided myself as a hobby jogger.
Maybe I've read too much letsrun for my level. This site is obsessed with "hobbyjoggers" I was using its lingo. Also "polarize your training" is one of the 1st things you see when you read about training. Is it that unbelievable that a person could have some previous consistency issues and also not be that seasoned, and know that you're "supposed to" do that while having some worry about a run that isn't polarized?
Not that I think a slow guy can't obssess about training, but rather the fact that you've read this much lr means you SHOULD know posting a thread like this means a lot of flaming, a lot of miles of trials, a lot of just run baby. A simple search would reveal that nobody on lr cares about this "gray zone", it's literally just used by some cyclists and hr training fanatics. So yes, leaning towards troll. But if you're actually trying to get better, stop reading lr and just run baby.
Club runs are always too fast. If you want to run a sane easy pace you pretty much have to run alone. The only exception is if you're running with people aged 60+.
I understand that you feel club runs are generally too fast and that running alone is necessary to maintain a comfortable pace. hahahahhahah
Once I jump into marathon training soon I'll run with them on Thursdays as my marathon pace/tempo day and if their Saturday runs are a decent pace I'll hop in then as well. Doing 2 runs at their pace plus intervals could be a too much too soon problem, so I think going with them 1-2 times per week depending on long run pace is the way to go. I don't think the too much too soon concern is above my level haha.
i think one reason i resist this is i don't buy the fast guys would go that fast on an easy day. if you told my XC team it was easy day we'd be off messing about in the trails/woods, we literally went in the sewers twice underground, jogged in the school in the AC, jogged around/through the band/drill team/football.
i also think most XC people would be working back from a result rather than complaining in the abstract about training. our expressions of how we felt were usually like i am tired, i feel good, this part hurts. not that easy run was 20 seconds too fast for someone of my speed. when i discuss the "soccer dispensation" i do so knowing what followed. my last year i lost the dispensation, got anemia, ran my slowest meet time ever. which, i can then explain in terms of poor diet meets more miles and pressure, as well as blood tests. i then ran my fastest split of any meet my last meet ever, as well as a decent time, having had plenty of rest. hmm i know what the culprit is.
i think part of it would be to me i am a gamer and i am only thinking about practice if i still feel my legs at the meet. otherwise, it's what are my meet times doing. if my times are going down practice is working. what do i care whether that run that one day was 20 seconds faster than it should be. i don't buy most runners have that mentality unless the meet gives them a reason to do so.
Here is the part you're evidently missing: the faster guys in the OP's "hobbyjogging" club are probably experienced, committed, less-talented runners who ran varsity on mediocre high school teams and wish they could be on their college team but aren't fast enough to be, so they run too hard every day because they're frustrated they're not as fast as the guys on the team (note: 100 million years ago when I was in college that was me). The OP has come to the sport from a totally different path, wants to do it "right" (where "right" means what websites and books tell him he should do). I don't get what is hard to believe about any of that.
i think one reason i resist this is i don't buy the fast guys would go that fast on an easy day. if you told my XC team it was easy day we'd be off messing about in the trails/woods, we literally went in the sewers twice underground, jogged in the school in the AC, jogged around/through the band/drill team/football.
i also think most XC people would be working back from a result rather than complaining in the abstract about training. our expressions of how we felt were usually like i am tired, i feel good, this part hurts. not that easy run was 20 seconds too fast for someone of my speed. when i discuss the "soccer dispensation" i do so knowing what followed. my last year i lost the dispensation, got anemia, ran my slowest meet time ever. which, i can then explain in terms of poor diet meets more miles and pressure, as well as blood tests. i then ran my fastest split of any meet my last meet ever, as well as a decent time, having had plenty of rest. hmm i know what the culprit is.
i think part of it would be to me i am a gamer and i am only thinking about practice if i still feel my legs at the meet. otherwise, it's what are my meet times doing. if my times are going down practice is working. what do i care whether that run that one day was 20 seconds faster than it should be. i don't buy most runners have that mentality unless the meet gives them a reason to do so.
Here is the part you're evidently missing: the faster guys in the OP's "hobbyjogging" club are probably experienced, committed, less-talented runners who ran varsity on mediocre high school teams and wish they could be on their college team but aren't fast enough to be, so they run too hard every day because they're frustrated they're not as fast as the guys on the team (note: 100 million years ago when I was in college that was me). The OP has come to the sport from a totally different path, wants to do it "right" (where "right" means what websites and books tell him he should do). I don't get what is hard to believe about any of that.
To add: On Strava I follow a few OT qualifiers and many club runners that hope maybe someday when all the stars are in alignment they just might break 3 hours. Most of the "hope to break 3 hours someday" crew does almost all of their running as fast as the OT qualifiers do most of their running. The difference? The OT qualifiers run anywhere from 2x to 4x as many miles, and the OT qualifiers do their workouts well over a minute per mile faster than the "hope to break 3 hours someday" guys. The "hope to break 3 hours someday" guys are probably the faster guys in the college running clubs, running 7:40 pace on their "easy" days and not understanding that that's not actually easy.
Unless it is an extremely long run, 7:40 pace should be fine for you. I'm not a whole lot faster than you (19:48) and a lot older (66), and I would generally run my "long" run 8-10 miles quicker than 7:40.
A shorter run, say 4 miles at the pace, would be a relatively easy day.
So, unless they are running more than about 10 miles, 7:40 should be a nice aerobic run (it's close to 70 seconds a mile outside your 5k pace). I suspect after a few weeks you'd get to the point where you recover very quickly from it, especially given your age.
Here is the part you're evidently missing: the faster guys in the OP's "hobbyjogging" club are probably experienced, committed, less-talented runners who ran varsity on mediocre high school teams and wish they could be on their college team but aren't fast enough to be, so they run too hard every day because they're frustrated they're not as fast as the guys on the team (note: 100 million years ago when I was in college that was me). The OP has come to the sport from a totally different path, wants to do it "right" (where "right" means what websites and books tell him he should do). I don't get what is hard to believe about any of that.
To add: On Strava I follow a few OT qualifiers and many club runners that hope maybe someday when all the stars are in alignment they just might break 3 hours. Most of the "hope to break 3 hours someday" crew does almost all of their running as fast as the OT qualifiers do most of their running. The difference? The OT qualifiers run anywhere from 2x to 4x as many miles, and the OT qualifiers do their workouts well over a minute per mile faster than the "hope to break 3 hours someday" guys. The "hope to break 3 hours someday" guys are probably the faster guys in the college running clubs, running 7:40 pace on their "easy" days and not understanding that that's not actually easy.
I think this touches on something that gets misunderstood.
When we talk about elites running super slow on recover runs, assuming they are middle-distance and up runners we're looking at people running 80-120 or more miles a week, and these slow runs are just low aerobic add ons to the core training.
About 40 years ago I, was a modest club runner in England - 9:15 two miles, 15:22 5k - and running about 50 miles a week, and wouldn't have done any running anywhere near 7:00, and most of our winter steady running would be quicker than 6:00 min miling. Now, if I had been going to add mileage (which would have needed doubling) then that would have needed to be slower.
These days at 66, I still don't run much slower than 8:00, it's just that the recovery runs are shorter - 3 or 4 miles. Off that alternating with Easy Interval Method sessions, I ran 19:48 last year.
For an average club runner, running 16-20:00 mins, you don't need to be thinking about that kind of volume of training, all you need to do is to run easily enough on your non workout days that you can hit your targets on workout days, and as a young 20:00 guy, you can do that off easy/steady days at 7:40, no problem.
i think one reason i resist this is i don't buy the fast guys would go that fast on an easy day. if you told my XC team it was easy day we'd be off messing about in the trails/woods, we literally went in the sewers twice underground, jogged in the school in the AC, jogged around/through the band/drill team/football.
i also think most XC people would be working back from a result rather than complaining in the abstract about training. our expressions of how we felt were usually like i am tired, i feel good, this part hurts. not that easy run was 20 seconds too fast for someone of my speed. when i discuss the "soccer dispensation" i do so knowing what followed. my last year i lost the dispensation, got anemia, ran my slowest meet time ever. which, i can then explain in terms of poor diet meets more miles and pressure, as well as blood tests. i then ran my fastest split of any meet my last meet ever, as well as a decent time, having had plenty of rest. hmm i know what the culprit is.
i think part of it would be to me i am a gamer and i am only thinking about practice if i still feel my legs at the meet. otherwise, it's what are my meet times doing. if my times are going down practice is working. what do i care whether that run that one day was 20 seconds faster than it should be. i don't buy most runners have that mentality unless the meet gives them a reason to do so.
Here is the part you're evidently missing: the faster guys in the OP's "hobbyjogging" club are probably experienced, committed, less-talented runners who ran varsity on mediocre high school teams and wish they could be on their college team but aren't fast enough to be, so they run too hard every day because they're frustrated they're not as fast as the guys on the team (note: 100 million years ago when I was in college that was me). The OP has come to the sport from a totally different path, wants to do it "right" (where "right" means what websites and books tell him he should do). I don't get what is hard to believe about any of that.
my experience you work your butt off at practice -- you do this supposed grey zone run and you don't say a word -- and you see what the meets tell you. you don't know any better that it's your own lack of fitness. i only blamed the workouts when i knew i was already fit -- had run some good times -- and my body went south and times detonated, went backwards, and i literally got sick one season when my workload atop soccer got significantly increased. yeah, then, i need to eat better and dumb coach you just blew up your varsity runner asking too much. and i could prove that because on a few days rest i ran faster splits than ever.
this is how normal competitive runners work. i run meet 1, ok time, but maybe i'm not 100% yet. meet 2, better, practice is working. etc. my first assumption if i have to drag myself through a workout is either soccer was still with me, or i didn't eat right, or let's just gut out today for the bigger fitness picture.
it's absurd to run a mediocre PR and blame the speed of the recovery run for anything. when i had to drag through some supposedly easy part of a XC workout at first, i assumed it was me. i need to get fitter. when you run 20 i would assume it's you.
i buy someone with a few years at this is wandering around here pondering training routines. i don't buy a noob has the first clue. and when a noob who is actually ok for his situation starts using terms clowning on himself usually made by <15 min 5k types, this is either trolling or completely wrongheaded analysis. maybe i am reading myself in here too much but most people in season 1, or even 2 and a little bit after, aren't picking workouts apart. at most, "is coach working us a little too hard?" and that's gestalt from exhaustion not this one workout was mis-run but i feel fine and i am not even talking in terms of my meet times. like i said, if my meet times are dropping, run my legs off, coach. long as i feel good on game day and put up the performances.
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