XC rules thoughts

Keep this in mind, the coach approached me and my daughter, the coach initiated the conversation with the words “we are talking about disqualifying you.” We calmly asked why and she said because of the line issue. We had a 2 minute conversation, coach raised her voice first but I also raised mine. 15 minutes later I approached her and apologized, that night I emailed to apologize again. I apologized for my tone and acknowledged that I should have not gotten involved. All research I’ve done, and folks I’ve spoken to since have been done in a way of either posing a hypothetical or in a way that nobody could know who I am talking about and I have not approached her, emailed her or otherwise mentioned to her or anyone associated with the school that I have sought and found an answers about the rules at issue. So, yes I have been a bit fixated on the issue but other than a 2 minute conversation I didn’t initiate I don’t think I’ve done anything that could be considered wrong, bad, or snowplow like.
I have no intention of sharing the conversations, research or answers I’ve found with the coach or school. I’ve instructed my daughter to follow the coach’s instructions and stay near the line in future meets, however prior to the incident there were no instructions from the coach about following the line vs following tangents. Most kids follow close to the line without thought, for me following tangents is as fundamental as running in lane one in track, and my influence on the topic was all my daughter knew, the coach feels different and is allowed to coach her own philosophy, but to have the first words she uttered on the topic to be about disqualification caught us off guard. I reacted poorly, I’ve apologized, the apology has been accepted. To privately research and discuss the matter in my opinion is not hurting or bothering anyone. I guess you could say she might read letsrun and my username would make it easy for her to identify me and know I’m talking about her but to me that feels like a bit of a stretch

If they did that she would of course do that, that is not what this team does. The kids all warm up or choose to not warmup individually or in small groups as they each choose. I’m not keeping her from something that the rest of the team is doing.

Oh, no I of course for a moment considered it, and something in me desperately wants to, but at this point I’m trying to work towards her liking me more than win the argument. I volunteered to run with them at practice today, and last week an opposing coach called the AD to say how much he appreciated my daughter walking along and encouraging a runner who was struggling but I still feel like there is a lot of work to get back to zero and sharing this will only reinforce her negative view of me. I wonder if she’s researched it herself and maybe there’ll be cones at next week’s meet, but even if there isn’t I’ll have nothing to say about it.

Because my daughter and I were having a conversation, I also talked with her about pacing, double knotting her shoes, maintaining effort over hills and numerous other related topics. My daughter and I have these conversations all the time, to try and share my vast knowledge on running with my daughter seems very natural, to share every insight I have with her team would only make sense if someone invited me to. I absolutely have been a guest speaker for xc teams and on those occasions share everything I can, but unless someone invites me to speak or poses a question I generally try and let the coach coach.

Right, she traveled approximately 35 feet from the line. Many other runners traveled inside the line but by 12 feet or less. The rule of course cannot be determined by what other runners do. The rule as I understood it then and have now validated with the man who writes the rules for Ohio is that a runner may go cone to come with no consideration for how far from the line they travel. The advice was perfectly legal and correct, and in my mind not an ethical concern any more than ruining the inside lane of a track is. You may call this cheating, or course cutting, but the maneuver is not in any way a violation of the rules. Regulations on course layout say the the course schools be measured along the shortest path a runner can take, the line my daughter ran.

To be clear, I emailed an official days after the meet describing the situation but giving no names or places or asking for any action other than a clarification on the rule.

Yes, hard to believe it's even a point of debate. Did this coach not run in college? I'm not sure what the excuse is for such a basic misunderstanding of the rules. Hopefully your exchange prompted her to look up the rules and realize her mistake. It'd be nice if she admitted your daughter did nothing wrong and in fact ran the course the technically correct way. Some coaches have to much ego to admit mistakes though.

This makes no sense. How can your daughter not know her own home course? Why would you have to walk it ahead of time?

Not every school can afford a million cones or ropes or whatever. If the meet organizer said follow the line, then that's the bottom line.

Yeah, she ran in college but honestly this week I've spoken to a handful of my college teammates and was surprised to find that while of 5 I spoke to 3 said knew the rule, 1 said he'd never thought about it and one said he was unsure but though the coach was right. You add to it the, comments here you start to realize that even among seasoned runners it's not as well known a rule as I thought it was

Are any additional barriers required if double lines are used? And nobody seems to be able to address where spectators can be.

It is her first season of xc, it was her third race and first home meet, she had run the course only once before a couple weeks earlier. While you are entitled to your opinion about following the line you'll see that an earlier post I pasted in my e-mail exchange with the man who writes/interprets rules for the state of Ohio, who in this matter would be the highest authority and final say and he said the runners could run directly from one cone to the next. I hear what your saying about schools not being able to afford cones but really any object would do, a cardboard box, an old boot, a broken birdhouse, a piece of firewood, really any discarded piece of junk that would be visible above the grass.

I've not spoken to anyone about the double lines, but my interpretation from reading the rules and several decades of experience is that runners must stay between the lines in a double line situation, but in a practical sense a runner who steps out for a moment to make a pass or wobbles out because they step in a mole hole or something is unlikely to face any repercussions. As for spectators I don't remember seeing any rules regarding them, but in a practical sense if they are near the course they need to have their eyes up and pay attention and stay out of the way.

some friendly advice. Let it go and stop bothering your HS track officials and coaches. It's people like you that make HS coaches/ officials hard to get.

You conversation are great... Outside of a meet. no one is saying "don't advise your kid" but we have a strict rule. No parent involvement before a race. The "vast knowledge" you have may be going against your coaches plan for the meet.

Alternatively, become a volunteer coach for the team. Then you might get it in stead of thinking you know everything by being a "guest speaker"

Maybe I’m in the minority here, but I had a middle school coach who said to never feel obligated to follow the paint lines. She always said to follow the flags etc. and run in tangents, so that’s what I always did all the way through college. I don’t think running in tangents ever made it so it was way off the line on the courses I ran on, but tbh I’ve never really thought about it until now. I guess since that’s how I did it from the beginning, I thought it was common knowledge that you didn’t have to follow the paint lines.

It is sad to see some of the responses here.

You guys remember Valby not running the tangents? Some of you would be a perfect coach for her and tell her to continue sticking to the line no matter how far off it goes. Idiotic. Maybe Mu should run in lane 2. Sheesh.

Maybe Johnw needs to watch out to not be the snowplow dad, or whatever, but SO MANY HS "COACHES" absolutely suck and no nothing. It does nobody any good to let them continue in their blissful ignorance and teach others to be ignorant drones as well.

"Privately" Give me a break. Anyone who was there or heard about is going to know who you are and who your daughter is. Every post is full of excuses. You're a snowplow parent, plain and simple.

Okay- theres two things being discussed here- the rule, and my behavior. We now all know the rule, which I honestly thought everyone knew last week and if they did my behavior would not be an issue.

So Imagine this scenario, you're chatting with your kid after a race and the coach who is acting as host comes up and says to your kid "we're thinking about DQing you", the kid ask why and the coach says "your socks are too long." You having read the rules on socks that day turn and say "there's no rule concerning sock length". The coach raises voice slightly and says, "there absolutely is, everyone knows socks cant stick too far above the shoes". You firmly say "I read the rules today, theres nothing like that in there". Coach now shouting and believing she's right says there is, you knowing there is not also raise your voice saying there is not. You go back and forth for a few minutes before you say say, "we are just going to agree to disagree" and walk off. You think on it for a few minutes and think to yourself "I'm still pretty sure about the rule but I should've just let it play out and not ever said anything", you go back to the coach and say "hey, I'm sorry, I never should've gotten involved." Coach responds with "hey no big deal, the important thing is that you and your daughter now know the rule regarding socks".

You may then as I did come home thinking maybe I've misunderstood the rules, you look them up and can find no rule regarding socks, nothing saying they can be short or long so, its not quite definitive. If you're a lifelong runner you have in your friend circle many coaches, former college runners etc. you maybe call or text some and find most but not all agree with you, but some of those disagreeing are really smart and thoughtful guys so this rule you were completely certain about you now are no longer completely certain- so you post on lets run to get a bigger sample size. Again a majority but not all are agreeing that you understood the rule correctly so you may think, is there someone who can give a definitive answer. So, you get on the google machine and look to see is there an authority who can answer the question definitively. You find the e-mail address for the guy who wrote the rules, you email him and ask "I don't see any rules regarding the length of socks, how long can socks be?"

I was caught of guard, I responded poorly, I apologized twice, then I talked to friends, posted on letsrun, and emailed a state offical who's e-mail address is on the state website for the purpose of being emailed to answer rules questions. I've had no contact with the coach the school or anyone involved beyond normal picking my kid up from practice and a quick hello. So, on that day I within minutes recognized that I was in the wrong for saying anything at all let alone raising my voice to the coach, I apologized, the apology was accepted, I still feel bad but also feel that I've done everything reasonable that I can do to make it right. Please tell me one thing besides that first interaction that you feel is wrong or a nuisance to anyone.

1) I had a conversation with the coach that she initiated, it lasted two minutes and went poorly- I had a second conversation but it lasted only seconds and was only an apology for the first.

2) The email with the official was simply asking for a clarification on the rule, he has his email on the website for this purpose. I simply asked in vague hypothetical terms "if there is an open field with two cones and an arched line...."

3) I was a HS, college and have been active in the running community for four decades, I have interviewed for coaching positions in the past but my work schedule makes it difficult to accept a position and I"m not certain that i would've been offered the jobs if i had been available but in a few years when I retire coaching is something I would like to pursue.

4) I work as a college art professor, I would say I have vast knowledge in that field, I would also say I have vast knowledge of running, there are no other subject areas where I would categorize my knowledge as vast. If the coach had shared her viewpoint prior to the race I would not have told my kid to disregard it. My tangent advise was filling a void not competing with the coach's advise, now that we are aware of the coach's beliefs I have instructed my child to listen to the coach and run however the coach instructs.

5) Lastly this coach and team has no prohibition on involvement before the race, kids warmup on their own or in small groups, or chat with their parents or friends. Some don't warmup at all, some do, but my conversation with my daughter was not keeping her away from anything that the coach had planned or was doing.

I won't say I'm at the level of stress dreams, but my God do I feel this. My senior year, 20 years ago this fall, I was the dominant runner in a rural region and we used to run all these dual and tri meets against schools with nobody good, and their courses were just like you say. Maybe an arrow painted on the ground every half mile if they remembered to do it. Coaches announcing just before the starting line, "you'll go straight down this path between those trees, and then you'll come to an open field and first you'll do a short loop and then a big loop, then you'll go past another stand of trees and take a left, then go down a big hill and do two laps around the drainage pond, then come back up the hill and . . ." One time I did just what you talk about, running with the host school's top runner until late, and even he went the wrong way!

Even though I was no longer the top dog at the postseason/state meets, it was sure a relief to have a well-marked course and people to follow.