Head to head comparisons are pretty silly. If Embiid and the 76ers are ahead of Jokic and the Nuggets head to head that just means that Embiid and the 76ers are that much further behind against the rest of the league compared to Jokic and the Nuggets.
Games against everyone count the same. And frankly, as talented as Embiid is, to compare him to Jokic at this point is just plain ridiculous.
Take a look at (career) advanced stats in the playoffs - where you "really lace 'em up."
Win Shares per 48 minutes
Embiid: .134 (bordeline all-star level)
Jokic: .236 (4th highest of all time)
Value over replacement player per game played
Embiid: .0491 (borderline all-star level)
Jokic: .1176 (3rd highest of all time)
Box Plus/Minus
Embiid: 3.5 (borderline all star level)
Jokic: 10.4 (2nd highest of all time)
Sorry, but Embiid is simply not in the same galaxy as Jokic, even ignoring durability issues.
"Compare his stats against the player...." is what I was responding to. Yes, if you're looking at Jokic' stats against Bam and deduce that Jokic is better. shouldn't you deduce that Embiid is better when looking at their head to head stats?
Not if you take the time to peel the layer off the onion. I’d say by and large Embiid is the better rebounder, but Jokic is the better offensive player. A couple of reasons why: most of the games were played in Philly. The home team pretty much always won. In spite of that, Jokic had the higher shooting percentage (51% vs 45%), the sole reason Embiid had more points is he took more shots. The genius of Jokic’s game is he passes when he sees a teammate with a higher percentage shot instead of forcing junk shots. The value of an assist cannot be understated. The average assist is worth about 2.3 points in the three point happy environment we have today. If you take that into account, Embiid contributed about 33.9 points per game versus Jokic’s 38.9 points per game. The only time I saw him be selfish was he was on the floor against Zeller in the finals, and that’s just because he knew that guy couldn’t defend him.
95% of NBA players dont have explosive quickness nor tremendous jumping ability. Unless youre watching through special goggles of course. Those that supposedly have "explosive quickness" or "jumping ability" suck in other ways and are non factors. Simple fact is that Jokic is a better all around athlete than any in the NBA.
Now people are trying to argue Jokic is athletic?! 😆 Y’all are nuts! Get your head checked. The Colorado altitude has made you light headed.
To those saying he needs a few more years… what must that look like?
He already has 2 mvp’s (arguably lost his 3rd this year to voter fatigue), has been to conference finals twice in 4 years, and has now won a championship and finals mvp. This playoff run it felt like he was setting some sort of record every game. Does he just need more rings for you to accept his greatness?
I agree he isn’t THE greatest at this time, but curious what it would take. He plays the position differently from someone like Shaq.
As I have said here and elsewhere, Jokic is on course to be in the conversation as greatest player of all time. Not just top center - overall NBA GOAT.
I do not think that when all is said and done he will be widely regarded as the GOAT. But he will show up in such discussions (much as Kareem or Wilt do today).
What more does he need to do? For me, it is just a matter of playing at this level for a reasonable length career. So far, he has been the best player in the league for three years running. Make that seven or eight years and he enters the conversation.
Jokic can play better defense but can't afford to get in foul trouble because he is their entire offense. If he challenges every shot and gets in foul trouble, Denver is screwed.
If your center for other teams has to sit, then they don't have as good rebounding for 5+ minutes. If Jokic sits, then the Nuggets offense, defense, and rebounding suffers.
The goal is to keep him on the court for as long as possible, not to lead the league in blocks/
Rubbish. Olajuwon, Shaq, Ewing, Robinson, Mourning, and Howard were their teams’ top scoring options, and they still played great defense. Today the same can be said about Giannis and Embiid. The best players excel on both ends of the court.
The Denver Nuggets were 22 points per 100 possessions better with Jokic on the court than off the court this year. Those 22 points include both offensive and defensive impact, by definition.
You could also look at advanced metrics such as Value over Replacement Player, Win Shares per 48 minutes or Box Plus/Minus. All of these include defensive impact as well as offensive impact. Jokic led the league in every one of these by huge margins.
Being that much better with Jokic on the court just means their bench sucks. Their backup center is a washed up Deandre Jordan. Of course they’d be vastly better with Jokic on the court when they don’t have a good backup. Dig deeper than your flawed stats and apply some common sense.
Jokic is simply not an elite defender, and that’s why he can never be the GOAT.
To those saying he needs a few more years… what must that look like?
He already has 2 mvp’s (arguably lost his 3rd this year to voter fatigue), has been to conference finals twice in 4 years, and has now won a championship and finals mvp. This playoff run it felt like he was setting some sort of record every game. Does he just need more rings for you to accept his greatness?
I agree he isn’t THE greatest at this time, but curious what it would take. He plays the position differently from someone like Shaq.
Here’s just one player at his position whose resume he would need to beat:
Of course he was amazing during the playoffs as expected by the knowledgeable fan.
For some reasons he has had a number of naysayers who try to pick apart his game. He put Denver on his shoulders and won the finals, but he has done that all season. Never has a big man been so multitalented and skillful at all the important skills (shooting, passing, assitists rebounding, positioning, dribbling and quarterbacking) . He raises the skill level of his entire team to a rare extent.
And he is a modest good guy who doesn't have to showboat but he is totally dominant.
Problem with him is that he plays without flash, without personality. Tim Duncan was underrated and underappreciated for years (still is) because his style of play doesn't excite most fans. Winning this title will lift him up, but because of who he is and how he plays the moment he doesn't win he will be forgotten. Truth is, he does everything all these other superstars should be doing and he does it without seeking special attention. He should be respected more for not being a "me-first" star.
He doesn't care, he'd rather be at home with his horses.
To those saying he needs a few more years… what must that look like?
He already has 2 mvp’s (arguably lost his 3rd this year to voter fatigue), has been to conference finals twice in 4 years, and has now won a championship and finals mvp. This playoff run it felt like he was setting some sort of record every game. Does he just need more rings for you to accept his greatness?
I agree he isn’t THE greatest at this time, but curious what it would take. He plays the position differently from someone like Shaq.
Here’s just one player at his position whose resume he would need to beat:
Championships: Kareem 6, Jokic 1
MVP Awards: Kareem 6, Jokic 2
All-NBA First Team: Kareem 10, Jokic 3
All-Defensive First Team: Kareem 5, Jokic 0
All-Star Teams: Kareem 19, Jokic 5
Let me know when he catches up to Kareem.
Why are you comparing a top 3 GOAT player to Jokic who is just starting his career? Of course Kareem has more accolades.
95% of NBA players dont have explosive quickness nor tremendous jumping ability. Unless youre watching through special goggles of course. Those that supposedly have "explosive quickness" or "jumping ability" suck in other ways and are non factors. Simple fact is that Jokic is a better all around athlete than any in the NBA.
Now people are trying to argue Jokic is athletic?! 😆 Y’all are nuts! Get your head checked. The Colorado altitude has made you light headed.
Who cares if he is athletic? Joel Embiid is athletic but I'd take Jokic all day over him. Larry Bird wasn't athletic and he's a top 7 all time legend.
Seen enough of Shaq to tell me he is slower. Much more cumbersome in fact.
Pictures of post-NBA roided out Wilt tell you he is clearly stronger? What?
There is zero chance you ever saw young Shaq. Orders of magnitude more athletic than Jokic. Just no comparison at all.
Jokic will likely go down as the better player though.
I myself am curious to understand this one. Orders of magnitude more athletic than Jokic. OK, so please give me some actual statistics. So with this you mean to tell me Shaq can run a 100 in 11 flat while Jokic in 14 flat? A 400 in 59 while Jokic in 1 minute 35 seconds? Shaq long jumps 25 feet while Jokic 16? Shaq high jumps 7 feet while Jokic 5 feet? Please tell me what this "orders of magnitude" of athleticism is. Or do you not realize you still have your racist, media brainwashed glasses on?
95% of NBA players dont have explosive quickness nor tremendous jumping ability. Unless youre watching through special goggles of course. Those that supposedly have "explosive quickness" or "jumping ability" suck in other ways and are non factors. Simple fact is that Jokic is a better all around athlete than any in the NBA.
Now people are trying to argue Jokic is athletic?! 😆 Y’all are nuts! Get your head checked. The Colorado altitude has made you light headed.
If you are myopic in your understanding of athleticism (and most NBA fans are) and see it simply as jumping height and straight line running speed he is not that athletic. However if you see athleticism to include eye/hand coordination and hand speed and spatial/body awareness and motor accuracy and motor control he is gifted. He couldn't do what he does if he didn't have these types of athletic abilities to a gifted level.
Yes he has a very high basketball IQ but his ability to make 3's at a high percentage and to complete very accurate difficult passes requires more than just high intelligence, it requires a certain type of physical giftedness.
There is zero chance you ever saw young Shaq. Orders of magnitude more athletic than Jokic. Just no comparison at all.
Jokic will likely go down as the better player though.
I myself am curious to understand this one. Orders of magnitude more athletic than Jokic. OK, so please give me some actual statistics. So with this you mean to tell me Shaq can run a 100 in 11 flat while Jokic in 14 flat? A 400 in 59 while Jokic in 1 minute 35 seconds? Shaq long jumps 25 feet while Jokic 16? Shaq high jumps 7 feet while Jokic 5 feet? Please tell me what this "orders of magnitude" of athleticism is. Or do you not realize you still have your racist, media brainwashed glasses on?
There is an element of racism. Jokic was drafted at the bottom of the 2nd round because of it. If you watched clips of him play preNBA, he was doing many of the things he is doing now. Many figured he was white so he is probably is not that good and he was drafted well below where he should have been.
There is zero chance you ever saw young Shaq. Orders of magnitude more athletic than Jokic. Just no comparison at all.
Jokic will likely go down as the better player though.
I myself am curious to understand this one. Orders of magnitude more athletic than Jokic. OK, so please give me some actual statistics. So with this you mean to tell me Shaq can run a 100 in 11 flat while Jokic in 14 flat? A 400 in 59 while Jokic in 1 minute 35 seconds? Shaq long jumps 25 feet while Jokic 16? Shaq high jumps 7 feet while Jokic 5 feet? Please tell me what this "orders of magnitude" of athleticism is. Or do you not realize you still have your racist, media brainwashed glasses on?
That would be interesting to see what his speed compared to Shaq really is. Shaq was physically stronger and he would often score just by backing defenders to the hoop. I don't remember him making the types of moves and cuts to the basket that Jokic makes. He certainly couldn't dribble and shoot and pass like Jokic.
Now people are trying to argue Jokic is athletic?! 😆 Y’all are nuts! Get your head checked. The Colorado altitude has made you light headed.
Who cares if he is athletic? Joel Embiid is athletic but I'd take Jokic all day over him. Larry Bird wasn't athletic and he's a top 7 all time legend.
Larry Bird was more athletic than Embiid. Bird would fly down the court with the ball, weave his 6'9" body between three players without slowing down, throw in a reverse layup, and people would say "such great basketball intelligence".
Magic Johnson would do the same exact thing and people would say "what great instincts".
Bird and Magic were so similar. Same size, neither jumped a lot, both played in control. Different roles: Magic on the point, Larry on the wing. But a lot of similarities physically and with their game.
btw, Embiid is great, no slight to him, but Bird's athleticism is underrated.