Is daniels outdated ?

One thing that I found interesting re-reading daniels I that he says diffrent athletes will respond better to the diffrent FR, R, I, T, M paces.

Maybee it also depends on the training age of the athletes ?

Runners with less training years need more R and I pace work, while advanced guys need more T, M and <R type of work to still see improvements ?

I.e fast stuff needs to be even faster and the even more Tempo (double) is required to still see improvements

First google hit for me

runnersworld.com

Shalane Flanagan's Game Face

The national titles and American records are nice, but this Olympian won't rest until she wins the Boston Marathon.

Open link

Nothing wrong with using badger miles. Just don't pretend she doing easy runs as 8:00 pace.

Not sure what you're getting at here. Are you suggesting we aren't as competitive globally because US runners are trained using Daniels philosophies? Because that's not really the case.

Interesting take, I am reading JD 3rd Edition on PDF and it's a lot to take in.

Common Core Running Math™ :) Thank you!

Well, pointing out that compared to our relative dominance in certain disciplines in T&F, our distance athletes lag behind. Also noting that the most dominant training method used in the US is Daniels based, usually starting in HS. Not saying that Daniels sucks but these two points might have some correlation.

I use badger miles in my own running and it's worked very well for the same reason Jerry uses it. The whole point is that when athletes aren't worried about pace or thinking about pace they naturally slow down and recover better so they better absorb the hard days and have lower injury risk since they're actually recovering properly. Just that simple.

I'd admit that 3x600m at 800m race pace would be next to impossible, but 4x400m at race pace is doable.

I would frequently run 4x400m at 57-58 seconds, and ended up with a 1:57.5 800m.

Until a few years ago nearly everyone considered Bakkens training to be outdated, but Jakob and others have since revitalized this training philosophy.

Any program that has had success in the past can work with the right athlete in the right setting. When a really talented runner in the future trains using the Daniels formula and wins global championships you can be sure that everyone will want to copy it.

The truth is, it’s less about a secret training philosophy and more about the overall athlete and the person doing the running.

But why is bakken opposing to daniels ?

Bakken has one day of R pace (hills)

And 2 days of T and M pace work using the lactat meter to be more precise on the exact pace.

For me it is just an advanced version, matching the T volumen to the high milage run ?

The main diffrence with Hudson/Bakken is no I pace style workouts. So is vo2 max training dead ?

I believe the big reason that vo2max training has been deemphasized is because it is really a type of workout that you can do close to peaking but not really throughout the majority of a full training cycle. It's not like you can just run those types of intervals faster week after week. What you ended up with a lot in the late-90s, early-00s was a bunch of coaches having their runners doing 800-1600 repeats at 5K pace with short rest from August-November, which has steep diminishing returns.

As far as preparing the body to race 3k-5K when entering the races that matter, they are great.

It’s more of a I workout actually than a R actually. Feeling wise it feels like an I, but without long reps. Marius himself says that the hills can be replaced by 200 to 1000 intervals.

So actually, it’s I intervals very often, just not in a taxing form, the actual fast bits come from the sprints/strides.

If Daniels is a good solid training plan, then how can it date in our lifetime?
Arthur Lydiard principles are just as relevant today as they were in the 1950s.

This is because human physiology has not changed in 75 years nor has it changed in thousands of years.

You may get a specific situation where a coach will work with a specific athlete and they hit it out of the park.

You may get a coach and athlete who together and it doesn’t work. Good and bad training can look the same on paper.

Learn the basics of physiology as it pertains to endurance training and you won’t need to ask that question.

People still do the I work but mainly only in the 8 weeks before peaking. The rest of the time you back it off.

If you squint enough most training is the same. Is 2 days of 60mins of MP type running, a day of shorter sprints, and a ton of easy running Bakken or Lydiard?

I have a feeling if Daniels was coaching 13:10 runner instead of a bunch of D3 college kids, his plan would look a lot different.

Actually, an athlete with less training years (like a high school runner) will benefit more from, and achieve better long-term results (and health), with a focus more on aerobic development (AT-LT) for most of their training year, only focusing more on the faster, more anaerobic stuff (R & I paces) for relatively short periods leading up to their big races.
I believe it's a good idea to stay in touch with all paces throughout the year (including short alactic sprints), but by far the main focus for younger runners should be aerobic development.

No, VO2 Max training isn't dead within the Norwegian system. It's still used, but only focused on for shorter periods, particularly when sharpening up for the shorter distance races. And those weekly hill repeats with a relatively short (jog down) rest, are more of a VO2 max workout than an R session.

But Daniels I pace rep have super long rest, like his 4x4I 3E workouts.

That's 1k - 1mile for almost all athletes then 3 min rest ?

This is really the only thing I don't see anymore.

Bakken/Hudson has much shorter rests. Hudson is 60 seconds max even for 2k reps @ goal pace.

I don't know if it is bakken or lydiart, but for sure it is not daniels.

What Daniels does not have is fast short intervalls with short rest or short sprints.

The reps are Relative long R is 200 or 400s and I is 3-5 min which is more then 800m for most runners with quiet long rests.

I think you're confusing his I and R workouts. It's his R (rep) workouts that have the really long (nearly full) recoveries. His I workouts (VO2 Max type) use the usual rest interval for that type of session.