How is these not four year bans reduced at most to 3 by early admission?
This depends on whether the drugs are "specified" or "not specified". The default bans, as well as who has the burden of proving intent (leading to 4 years), are not the same for all drugs. Marijuana gets you 30 days, if you jump through all the hoops.
Read what the drugs were and read the banned list …. and the grovel.
The burden is the same for all the drugs… read and grovel.
Yes Rekky. 60% of all doping busts are not Kenya - but that 60% covers every other country on Earth (Kenya population 53 million vs world population 8 billion). But on a less trollish note; I would think at this point some changes need to be made; lifetime bans need to come into play for those caught who do not co operate in implicating their suppliers. Bans should cover managers and coaches and officials. Effective return of prizemoney received by dopers by fraud (prizemoney remains in escrow for a period until doping is disproved). That would be some sort of start.
Says the weirdo who believes it is unfair to call runners convicted of anti-doping offences as dopers or cheats, and who goes aganist the universal consensus of scientists, anti-doping experts, WADA, AIU, World Athletics, athletics fans, and the average lay person, in holding that PEDs do not give athletes any advantage.
Once again, if your beliefs of which PEDs worked, we would have seen the effects universally, in Africans and non-Africans alike -- for all the reasons Armstronglivs tells me: human nature, do what it takes to succeed mentality, etc. etc.
There are 11 ways you can violate anti-doping rules. Just like jay-walking or shoplifting does not make you guilty of murder, each offence comes with its own set of pre-requisites and consequences.
I share the consensus of the best scientists that observations in artificial settings, not accurately replicating real training and competition, and conducted on the wrong subjects in the wrong state of training, should not be projected onto elite athletes and their best elite performances. This is basic intellectual common sense.
WADA and bodies like the AIU, WA do not actually burden themselves with deciding which drugs can rightfully be called PEDs in laymen's terms, or whether a PED actually enhanced any performance in each instance, because the WADA standard is a subjective assessment that a drug is potentially able to enhance performance, and the WADA committee doesn't even have to give which reasons were considered for inclusion onto the banned list.
You are right that drugs get banned without any given reason and don’t have to be possible enhancers to be banned.
But this is very different from many drugs clearly being enhancers. You would have to be of very very limited brain power for that not to be obvious.
It's more plausible that Ethiopians have a genetic edge, and that the Kenyans were always riding on the coat-tails of Bilika's success for Ethiopia, doping their way to success disguised under the 'East African natural born runner' legend.
Ethiopians and Kenyans are very different genetically. There is no genetic reason why these two neighbouring countries should be the two best distance running nations out of 200+, when there are a number of other high altitude countries that do next to nothing in distance running.
Nonsense they/re both on the rift valley at altitude.
Ethiopia testing is where Kenya was 10 years ago -cannot believe you wrote that. EPO in the hotel what planet are you? on
Was Kip Keino on EPO! Both countries have been solidly at it since 1990 when the Italian coaches moved over from cycling.
1968 was the first time an official complaint about steroids was being heard. This complaint wasn't made by sports authorities, but by the World Health Organization. Apparently steroids were being dumped in some third world countries with a kickback volume incentive for doctors. The doctors became quite creative in finding reasons to prescribe steroids, citing everything from malnutrition to menstrual cramps. Coincidentally,the two main countries cited in the report were Kenya and Jamaica, countries that burst into prominence at the 1968 Olympics
The World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) is flushed with victory after catching their first group of athletes for blood doping offenses 31 years after they invented the practice of testing.
Yes Rekky. 60% of all doping busts are not Kenya - but that 60% covers every other country on Earth (Kenya population 53 million vs world population 8 billion). But on a less trollish note; I would think at this point some changes need to be made; lifetime bans need to come into play for those caught who do not co operate in implicating their suppliers. Bans should cover managers and coaches and officials. Effective return of prizemoney received by dopers by fraud (prizemoney remains in escrow for a period until doping is disproved). That would be some sort of start.
We should not use country populations, since athletics participation, and performance, is not uniform across all countries. Not all Kenyans from all parts of Kenya succeed in distance running. It is mostly those from certain regional groups in the highlands. Similar with Ethiopia.
In an earlier post to you, I showed you with your own example of sub-2:10 runners, that Kenya outperformed the rest of the world with 532 (42%) out of 1281 runners. Ethiopia was 20% and other East Africans an estimated +/- 10% and North Africans at 2.3%, leaving non-Africans to account for about 26.5%. Using your example, if Kenya doping prevalence is the same as the world average, then ~40% of the busts from these sub-2:10 runners will be from Kenya.
On a less trollish note, I would be all for lifetime bans if I had more confidence that anti-doping gets positives right every time. To quote Ross Tucker: "The problem with lifetime bans is that you would have to prove beyond any doubt that the athlete cheated, which means it raises the bar that WADA (or the host federation) needs to clear in order to obtain a guilty verdict, ... such a measure seems unfeasible until the testing processes are absolutely airtight and completely infallible." "People have called for life-time bans for drug cheats – this is impossible unless the system to catch dopers is 100% accurate. It isn’t, ..."
I do agree with you that more should be done to identify the sources of doping: doctors, chemists, managers, husbands, coaches, agents, etc.
1968 was the first time an official complaint about steroids was being heard. This complaint wasn't made by sports authorities, but by the World Health Organization. Apparently steroids were being dumped in some third world countries with a kickback volume incentive for doctors. The doctors became quite creative in finding reasons to prescribe steroids, citing everything from malnutrition to menstrual cramps. Coincidentally,the two main countries cited in the report were Kenya and Jamaica, countries that burst into prominence at the 1968 Olympics
I did. So that means 60% are from non-Kenyans? I recall asking if you could connect the performance benefit from the best of the non-Kenyan 60% to doping? Surely it includes non-Africans producing similar Kenyan-esque performances. I didn't notice any response from you.
Given the larger percentage of Kenyans in the global pool of elite athletes, I expect a larger percentage athletes busted, for the same relative prevalence rate.
I also noted it came from Coe, who can only speak testing conducted for the WA/AIU. In a couple years, WADA will compile an ADRV report for 2022 with more accurate figures compiled from all of its signatories. Furthermore, AIU testing by country is not uniform -- all else being equal, they will target and test talented athletes more often.
Kenyan athletes do not make up 40% of athletes in the testing pool, and they are overrepresented in elite athletics in the first place because of their rampant doping. Plus Kenyan testing is corrupt, with text messages and tea money.
These are all things you tell yourself to make yourself believe.
It is tempting to assume the conclusion and think that Kenyans are outperforming in the first place because of doping, but then I see things like the Australian "scientists" who found Kenyan and Ethiopian blood doping was below the global average, and I see things like Russia outdoping all nations for decades, with just limited success for their women. Why wasn't Russia similarly over-represented? I see things like Kenyans moving to the USA, and Japan -- countries where testing is presumably less corrupt -- rising to the top of their new host countries best performers.
Note that two of the drugs you say are wonderful, HGH and EPO, had no tests for a long time. Corrupt testing or not, there would be nothing stopping nations worldwide from abusing these drugs in the '90s. Maybe a handful of countries like GB and NZ would refrain, but we know that countries like Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Greece, Turkey, Spain, etc., did not.
It's more plausible that Ethiopians have a genetic edge, and that the Kenyans were always riding on the coat-tails of Bilika's success for Ethiopia, doping their way to success disguised under the 'East African natural born runner' legend.
Ethiopians and Kenyans are very different genetically. There is no genetic reason why these two neighbouring countries should be the two best distance running nations out of 200+, when there are a number of other high altitude countries that do next to nothing in distance running.
Nonsense they/re both on the rift valley at altitude.
Ethiopia testing is where Kenya was 10 years ago -cannot believe you wrote that. EPO in the hotel what planet are you? on
Was Kip Keino on EPO! Both countries have been solidly at it since 1990 when the Italian coaches moved over from cycling.
Ethiopia is also being targetted by AIU who are responsible for most of the Kenyan busts. So either Ethiopia are doping less or they're a lot smarter than Kenya.
It may have to do with infrastructure. These busts from Kenya seemed to follow AIU moving resources into Kenya. My guess is Ethiopia is still too inaccessible.
Have to say The Banned Kenyans sounds like a punk rock band.
This post was edited 3 minutes after it was posted.
There is no genetic reason why these two neighbouring countries should be the two best distance running nations out of 200+, when there are a number of other high altitude countries that do next to nothing in distance running.
Surely this rationale is questionable. I'm sure there are loads of guys who are 6 ft 11 who are either rubbish or at best very average at basketball. Why is the 'debate' so absurdly binary - either genes/altitude OR Doping? EPO often seems to bring about a c 3% performance boost (yeah, it varies, I know), so if you do just 97% of a 2.03 marathon or 2.17 woman's marathon, what is that - just an average highly trained citizen cheating one's way from mediocrity to elite?
We should not use country populations, since athletics participation, and performance, is not uniform across all countries. Not all Kenyans from all parts of Kenya succeed in distance running. It is mostly those from certain regional groups in the highlands. Similar with Ethiopia.
In an earlier post to you, I showed you with your own example of sub-2:10 runners, that Kenya outperformed the rest of the world with 532 (42%) out of 1281 runners. Ethiopia was 20% and other East Africans an estimated +/- 10% and North Africans at 2.3%, leaving non-Africans to account for about 26.5%. Using your example, if Kenya doping prevalence is the same as the world average, then ~40% of the busts from these sub-2:10 runners will be from Kenya.
LOL. Nice cherry picking, Troll. Let's take a neutral approach, and look at the top instead of 1281 male marathon runners.
For example at the last Olympics, the Kenyans won ZERO % of all medals in the men's long distance track events. Zero is sensationally low compared to 40% of the busts. Shocking.
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