Will Katelyn Tuohy overtake Jenny Simpson as the"GOAT" of U S College Distance Runners?

Typically people don’t compare women to men.

Didn't appear to be the K T who set mile and 3K records. Looked more like the runner who ran 4:08 last week for 1500. Post race interview sounded like post race interview after Boston in December. Nevertheless moved from 10th to 2nd on the all time list for 5K by woman in college .Now trails Jenny on the table by 9 points 44 for Jenny to 35 for K T. Kipyego is 3rd with 27. Karissa appears to be 4th with 15 points. All of the times by Jenny were from 2009 when she was a senior .Only has 1 performance as a junior in the Steeple 9:29:20 still on the top 10 performance list.

I think someone explained it before, but how do the points work? I don’t remember.

It appears to be a point system the OP created to compare runners based on how high their college PBs rank on all-time collegiate top 10 lists in multiple events. It’s definitely useful information, but using it as the sole basis for determining the NCAA GOAT as the OP seems to be doing is obviously problematic. Championships matter, too, and I think world standing is also important.

I will preface my next comment by saying I root for Tuohy’s success as I root for all American runners (don’t attack me, Tuohy fans!). That said, I think Tuohy, for all her greatness, needs to be more competitive on the national and world levels to overtake Simpson.

While in college, Simpson did all of the following:

-won a U.S. championship
-made two national teams (not including the third team she made right after graduating)
-reached an Olympic final and finished 8th
-ran the fastest time in the *world* in the mile, 7th fastest in the 1500, 5th fastest in the steeple, and 11th fastest in the 3,000. Plus she was second fastest in the country at 5,000.

It will be very difficult to match, let alone exceed, those achievements. It would be very exciting if Tuohy does!

I had a similar take

The point system is a fun way to compare, but I don't think it's necessarily fair to include Jenny's Steeple performances. Tuohy shouldn't be penalized for choosing not to compete in a somewhat niche event. They each ran plenty in the 1500/mile/3k/5k to use that as a basis of comparison. And Jenny's championship results in the Steeple were aided by the fact that it was still in the early days of that event on the world stage -- the best Kenyan and Ethiopian athletes weren't yet focusing on it (just lots of doped Russians).

But I still agree with the conclusion. Jenny's best collegiate performances in the 1500/mile/3k/5k are still more impressive than Katelyn's so far, despite Katelyn having run faster in the mile/3k. Jenny did it in older shoes, and don't forget that her indoor 3k and 5k were run solo, which was super impressive.

Interesting.

I do; however, want to remind folks that women’s track & field 14 years ago was a different beast. Don’t get me wrong, I’m a mega-fan of those that have come before. Since the 80’s really. (I’m even a big Lynn Jennings fan). Women’s track & field and road racing is FAR more competitive and FAST on the national stage and world stage right now then it ever was before. What it took to make top-3 in USA for women’s distance 14 years ago would get you about 15th now. (Rough guesstimate). Totally different world.

What needs to be compared is:

What was done in COLLEGE and how that relates to their college peers.

I don’t think anyone would disagree that Tuohy is completely dominant against any NCAA woman runner in today’s world.

Thanks, I appreciate the spirit of what you’re saying regarding a more narrow focus of what they did in college against other collegians rather than what they did in national and international level competitions against pros during their college years. The challenge with such a narrow focus is twofold:

1) If we want to only look at how they fared against other collegians, then shouldn’t we only consider their performances in college-only races? Such a comparison would hurt Tuohy because she was able to key off pros when she broke the mile, 3k, and 5k records. Simpson’s 5k record came at the Washington Husky Indoor Classic where the second place runner finished over a minute behind her. Her 3k record was at the NCAA indoor championships, and her mile record was at the Big 12 indoor championships.

2) A strict college-only focus limits our ability to gauge excellence. It’s already a given that anyone who is in the conversation for college GOAT is head and shoulders above their NCAA contemporaries. Yes, Tuohy is of course the best female collegiate distance runner today. But to evaluate how she compares with college greats from previous generations, their respective standings at national and global levels can be illuminating.

Yes, thanks in large part to super shoes, times for women at the US national level are much faster than they were when Simpson was in college. But I’m not so sure the level of competition at the top is any better. Top US runners during Simpson’s college years included the likes of Shannon Rowbury, Anna Willard, Erin Donahue, Christin Wurth-Thomas, Morgan Uceny, Sara Hall, and Brenda Martinez at 1500/mile, and Shalane Flanagan, Kara Goucher, Jen Rhines, Lauren Fleshman, Molly Huddle, and Sara Slattery at 5k. That’s tough competition!

Thanks, nice to see we’re on the same page regarding the conclusion. I agree that Tuohy shouldn’t be penalized for not doing the steeple, but shouldn’t Simpson get extra credit for achieving what she did at 1500/mile/3k/5k while focusing on the steeple?

It’s not enough for a steepler to just train to be a strong runner. A steepler has to train to be a strong runner *and* work on their hurdling technique. Plus the steeple is a grueling event that takes a major physical toll. Simpson’s 3:59 was amazing on its own. When we remember that 3:59 came sandwiched in between three steeplechase races, that takes it to a whole other level.

RE: point 1, true but Simpson was 22 and and a half, in February, 2009 when she began her record year and lived and trained at altitude. Tuohy turned 21 a month and a half ago and lives/trains in NC. There is a reason every top US pro trains at altitude. As to the rest, I can see both points of view.

I go to the same school as her. I wonder if she's lesbian or straight. Never see her with guys much. idk

Good points. Simpson had the benefit of altitude; Tuohy has the benefit of super shoes. I have no idea which factor provides more benefit.

As for age, you’re right about that. Simpson was not only older when she broke those records, she was also in her fourth year of college (to Simpson’s credit, she made her first US national team after her sophomore year). Tuohy is currently in her third year of college. If Tuohy is this great now, we can only imagine how much better she’ll be next year.

1000% agree and glad to see others to do.

Tuohy is a legend in her own right because there was no one better than she was in high school and she carried that success to college to dominate. But to say that her collegiate career surpasses Jenny's is just a knock on what a OG Jenny was.

Jenny was just in another dimension and she had no roadmap for what she was doing. Break 4 in the 15 when no one else had done it? Sure. Go to the Olympics and set an American record? Sure. Win your first NCAA title as a freshman? Why not.

She had no company. There were no groups or pros to follow on instagram to glean inspiration from. There was Kara, there was Shalane, but truthfully, she had to decide what the bar was for what a US distance runner could be capable of.

Tuohy will be amazing, and is amazing. But it's unfair to compare the two.

I agree with your description of Jenny's prowess, but to be fair she had Sally Kipyego to chase and emulate for a few years. Jenny even acknowledged and thanked Sally for inspiring her in an interview after her 3000 record at NCAA indoors.

I don't know where this illusion comes from that there is a focus on the steeple. 99% of the training is the same and with the regular distance crew. After practice when others do striders, the Steeplers hit the hurdles a bit. Similarly, yes it's hard, but plenty of steeplers double off it, so I wouldn't exaggerate the grueling physical toll. You just run slower due extra fatigue caused by barriers. Barring injury, recovery is the same.

Now it is dangerous and injury causing. A missed barrier isn't a rocking hurdle, it's a mondo faceplant. Bad water jump landing on angled pit? Sprained ankle or strained calf. That's why most coaches actually minimize training of steeple and limit number of competitions to bare minimum.

Off top of my head plenty of collegiate all-Americans in steeple and flat. Purrier, Hurta, Wayment, Boreman, Ostrander, McCabe, Coburn, Quigley.

Simpson's reward for doing steeple is an Olympic medal and 10 extra points in the Op's format. Touhy would need to add steeple or 10k to match Simpson. She's taller than Ostrander and a decent athlete, so maybe we'll see Steeplyn Touhy.

What I meant to say more specifically, was that regardless of where they competed, or who they competed against, what did their time relate to in comparison to the collegiate peers? They can race pros all they want, especially if that’s where the competition is.

I don’t think it should matter how they fared in international competition, as an example. They are a collegian. Were they ranked #1 NCAA? Did they break NCAA records? Did they win NCAA championships?

Well said. Thought-provoking.

I love the idea of Tuohy trying the steeple at some point. It would be very interesting as she seems to have the overall strength and athleticism required. The 3k seems to be her best distance anyway, and with a 3k PR of 8:35, a significant margin of error to start with while adapting to the barriers and water jumps.

I really miss the days when semihaze or another of the many Tuohy fanatics would attack me after any perceived slight towards KT.