BEKELE was the kind of XC and Track and set WRs. Farah was the kind of championship track and never set WRs. Kipchoge was the King of the marathon and pretty good at track.
It was already pointed out that KB owned 2003 to 2009, and Farah 2011 through 2017...so those head to head matchups state the same thing.
If you look at the GOAT argument slightly different, forget about WR and medals, who was most dominant in their ERA? It really opens up the conversation because we cannot help the differences in rules, equipment, and training.
Farah was completely and utterly dominant at his height, and ran 3:28 1500 and something like a 59:30 half in the same season, prior to super shoes (just prior). He gets a lot of flak here but he did what he was supposed to do: win.
I'm starting to think WR just aren't as important to be honest. When Geb kept trying to lower the marathon WR in Berlin and Dubai with no real competition, people crapped on him for dodging competition. That would seem to indicate people want winners... Farah was a winner.
All that said, KB still wins overall because he was dominant on track and XC at the same time, beating Kipchoge himself most of the time. And no doubt had KB wanted to run a fast half back in 2005, 2006, he probably could have approached the then WR off of just his XC training, but alas, the half still wasn't quite as popular as it has ended up now.
dominance in era means nothing without contextualizing the era. you'd have to be able to say mo's era harbored relatively equal or greater competition. maybe that's true, I don't have any stats. but dominating in the down years means nothing.
Haile Gebrselassie is not getting the love he deserves in here. The man held nearly every world record from 2000m to the Marathon in his time. 2000, 3000, 2 mile, 5000, 10000, 15k 20k, half marathon, 25k, one hour run, marathon, 30k.
Haile Gebrselassie is not getting the love he deserves in here. The man held nearly every world record from 2000m to the Marathon in his time. 2000, 3000, 2 mile, 5000, 10000, 15k 20k, half marathon, 25k, one hour run, marathon, 30k.
Have you seen OP’s post? This is a troll thread. Not just unpopular, but plain stupid.
Haile Gebrselassie is not getting the love he deserves in here. The man held nearly every world record from 2000m to the Marathon in his time. 2000, 3000, 2 mile, 5000, 10000, 15k 20k, half marathon, 25k, one hour run, marathon, 30k.
I like the Haile argument more and more recently. He was definitely better on the roads than KB. And he was arguably better on the track, at the very least, he was right there. 17 of his 27 world records came on the track outdoors and in, 2000m to 10,000m (or the one hour but who cares). He also brought massive chunks of time off both the indoor and outdoor records in the 5000. The only thing going against him is his lack of 5000m results at championships, never winning a gold iirc.
Because of this ask an Ethiopian (or another elite runner, kipchoge for example) and its likely that they'll say Geb is the goat.
Then there's xc. Haile competed 3 times as a senior and came away with 1 bronze. Kenenisa has like 11 golds over 6 years. Probably enough to make him the best.
Here is the criteria by which I am making my decisions with the 4th category being the most important. The 4th category is sort of a combination of all other categories.
1. Peak athletic ability (PR)
2. Competition record and relative dominance of era
Do we have some agreed-upon criteria to work with here?
For instance, I would say Bikila and Keino and Zatopek deserve top-ten rankings because of their incredible significance to the sport. Each was a path breaker and Abebe is a global icon with his barefoot conquest of Rome.
If we’re just going on greatest champion, how do you match Bekele’s world xc titles? Or, take each athlete on their best day and imagine them racing. Could anyone have ever really matched Bekele over 10,000 when he was at his best? Or if you look at his Beijing 5000, could Mo or El G have beaten him if they were at their peaks on that day? Bekele’s lastlap in Beijing is a thing of beauty.
Relatedly, did anyone read Marc Bloom’s piece several months ago where he tried to argue that Shorter and not Kipchoge was the greatest marathoner of all time? I love Shorter, but Bikila and Kipchoge have been more significant and Kipchoge can’t realistically be considered anything other than the marathon GOAT. Even longtime sportswriters have weird, inconsistent, biased ways of assessing greatness.
1. Geb - set WRs at every distance up to marathon, would have won many more gold's if it wasn't for the stupid 10k qualifying round
2. Bekele - global titles, WRs, XC beast
3. Farah - track monster. Almost unbeatable for 7 years in both the 5 and 10 - the current generation are showing just how hard that is. More global titles than anyone in history.
Kipchoge stands alone as a marathon specialist. He was a good 5k guy for a while but not a great - he'd be all but forgotten by now if he hadn't transitioned to the marathon and become superhuman. And he doesn't have any notable 10k achievements.
Do we have some agreed-upon criteria to work with here?
For instance, I would say Bikila and Keino and Zatopek deserve top-ten rankings because of their incredible significance to the sport. Each was a path breaker and Abebe is a global icon with his barefoot conquest of Rome.
If we’re just going on greatest champion, how do you match Bekele’s world xc titles? Or, take each athlete on their best day and imagine them racing. Could anyone have ever really matched Bekele over 10,000 when he was at his best? Or if you look at his Beijing 5000, could Mo or El G have beaten him if they were at their peaks on that day? Bekele’s lastlap in Beijing is a thing of beauty.
Relatedly, did anyone read Marc Bloom’s piece several months ago where he tried to argue that Shorter and not Kipchoge was the greatest marathoner of all time? I love Shorter, but Bikila and Kipchoge have been more significant and Kipchoge can’t realistically be considered anything other than the marathon GOAT. Even longtime sportswriters have weird, inconsistent, biased ways of assessing greatness.
I gave criteria literally two posts before your post.
1. PRs
2. Dominance
3. Range
4. Hypothetical race results with large sample size.
Bikila, Keino, Zatopek, Nurmi, Snell, Shorter,… all greats no doubt. But if the four categories listed they would only do well in the dominance category. They’re PRs have all been eclipsed, their range is nowhere near as impressive, and they would certainly never win in any race against the others listed if all of them were in the race at once. By these criteria none of those athletes make my top 10.
I gave criteria literally two posts before your post.
1. PRs
2. Dominance
3. Range
4. Hypothetical race results with large sample size.
Bikila, Keino, Zatopek, Nurmi, Snell, Shorter,… all greats no doubt. But if the four categories listed they would only do well in the dominance category. They’re PRs have all been eclipsed, their range is nowhere near as impressive, and they would certainly never win in any race against the others listed if all of them were in the race at once. By these criteria none of those athletes make my top 10.
Comments like these make people believe you’re trolling. How can you say Nurmi and Zátopek’s range was nowhere near as impressive? Nurmi is the only man in history to win Olympic gold medals and break world records in all three of the 1500, 5K, and 10K. Zátopek pulled off the legendary 5K-10K-marathon triple at the 1952 Olympics. You’re either trolling or ignorant of the sport’s history. Neither is good.
I gave criteria literally two posts before your post.
1. PRs
2. Dominance
3. Range
4. Hypothetical race results with large sample size.
Bikila, Keino, Zatopek, Nurmi, Snell, Shorter,… all greats no doubt. But if the four categories listed they would only do well in the dominance category. They’re PRs have all been eclipsed, their range is nowhere near as impressive, and they would certainly never win in any race against the others listed if all of them were in the race at once. By these criteria none of those athletes make my top 10.
Comments like these make people believe you’re trolling. How can you say Nurmi and Zátopek’s range was nowhere near as impressive? Nurmi is the only man in history to win Olympic gold medals and break world records in all three of the 1500, 5K, and 10K. Zátopek pulled off the legendary 5K-10K-marathon triple at the 1952 Olympics. You’re either trolling or ignorant of the sport’s history. Neither is good.
Range with consideration of PRs baked in. For example 3:28 1500m and 59:30 HM for Mo Farah is far more impressive than a 3:52 1500 m and 30:40 PR with Nurmi.
I guess in category one I am picking the athletes best PR and in category 3 it’s the range of PRs, but both categories are regarding PR times.
sorry I guess I need to do a better job defining terms.
Range with consideration of PRs baked in. For example 3:28 1500m and 59:30 HM for Mo Farah is far more impressive than a 3:52 1500 m and 30:40 PR with Nurmi.
I guess in category one I am picking the athletes best PR and in category 3 it’s the range of PRs, but both categories are regarding PR times.
sorry I guess I need to do a better job defining terms.
Thank you for clarifying. If that’s the case, then I still struggle to understand how you don’t have Bekele #1 as he would be the top runner in 3 of your 4 categories:
Dominance - he is the only runner in history who was consistently dominant in both track and cross country
Range of PRs - Nobody can touch a range of 3:32, 7:25, 12:37, 26:17, and 2:01:41
Hypothetical race - nobody on their best day is beating 2008 Olympic Bekele in a championship 5K or 10K no matter how many simulations are run
Range with consideration of PRs baked in. For example 3:28 1500m and 59:30 HM for Mo Farah is far more impressive than a 3:52 1500 m and 30:40 PR with Nurmi.
I guess in category one I am picking the athletes best PR and in category 3 it’s the range of PRs, but both categories are regarding PR times.
sorry I guess I need to do a better job defining terms.
Thank you for clarifying. If that’s the case, then I still struggle to understand how you don’t have Bekele #1 as he would be the top runner in 3 of your 4 categories:
Dominance - he is the only runner in history who was consistently dominant in both track and cross country
Range of PRs - Nobody can touch a range of 3:32, 7:25, 12:37, 26:17, and 2:01:41
Hypothetical race - nobody on their best day is beating 2008 Olympic Bekele in a championship 5K or 10K no matter how many simulations are run
In a super fast honest race (sub 12:40) I think it comes down to Geb, Bekele, and Cheptegei (possibly Komen too) and probably Bekele wins most of the time. But in a more tactical race Farah (2015) or El G (2004) would definitely beat Bekele.
The issue is that without rabbits most championship races would be of the tactical variety.
