Can someone explain how a 20 minute threshold run is enough stimulus to trigger adaptation?

Good post. I would agree that unlike a VO2 max type session, there should NEVER be any question about ability to finish a tempo as intended (aside from injury etc).

Week-to-week, it might be a bit harder or a bit easier depending on weather, where your body is, and so on, but it should be a very doable solid effort. "Hardly comfortable, but comfortably hard" is how some people put it, and tbh for experienced runners they should be pretty comfortable but still effort-filled, if that wording makes sense.

Totally agree with this. All great workouts, and you just cannot go wrong with 4-6 miles / 6-10k of this work.

If aiming to stay at/below LT, I would do these around 10k pace with equal distance jog rest. I think there should be essentially ZERO chance of not finishing as planned.

12x400 at 10k pace with 400 jog might not seem hard, but that is 4800m of practicing race-pace efficiency, and 30-45 minutes of the relevant lactate dynamics for most runners. Excellent stimulus.

It's a conservative workout (for a lot of runners) for sure. It gives you just enough of a stimulus without going overboard, but elites and experienced runners can definitely do more.

The Melbourne Track Club do a 30 minute tempo week-in-week out, and if you look at Jakob's thresholds, they usually add up to 30 minutes of volume.

To address your concerns about not going all out in sessions: It's good to remember that training is not about smashing yourself (though there is a place for it), but about stressing the right energy systems - Vo2 max, Lactate Threshold - and improving your Running Economy.

Simply smashing yourself may improve your Vo2 max (though you'll probably be relying too heavily on your anaerobic system), but it will do comparatively little to improve your lactate threshold and running economy.

That hits the spot. I wish I had been more disciplined about doing tempo runs (85% works out well) in a way that would have fit the current fitness at the time or not interfere with the other important runs. I unfortunately had to realize that there is a difference between a continuous 20min tempo run and a tempo session with 4x5min/ 2min jog rest, given the other workouts of the week.

A 60 minute "threshold" run does not exist. That is called a 10 mile race. As someone who is not an elite but has run 52:xx 10 miles and 30:xx 10k a 20 minute run can be enough depending on your race. It is all about the race. Generally speaking...to drop my pace in the 5k/10k I would do race pace intervals (5k/10k/mile pace) and would run faster times. When you do lactate runs I would run anywhere from 20 seconds per mile slower than 10k pace to 40 seconds slower than 5k pace for extended periods of time which helps you not "feel as much burn during a real real race and helps with mental strength. However, 20 minute tempo runs are not the only type of threshold workout. For a half-marathon workout I might do 4 miles easy, 2 x 20 minutes (lactate pace minus 15 seconds per mile) with 1 mile jog between, and then 2 mile cooldown. It depends on what you want to do.

The effectiveness of a workout is based less on the volume or intensity of the session, and more on your ability to recover from it fully. If you run a 40min tempo but can't fully recover from it, then you're only getting the benefits of a 20-30min tempo anyways. The only difference is you're body is more beat-up after. That is why Lydiard or Livingstone recommend doing the least amount of intensity needed to trigger adaptations. For tempo, that's about 20-25mins. More just isn't more.

Look at the faces of anyone in a training group when the coach announces they'll be doing a 20min threshold and tell me it isn't "hard" lol.

The most loathed workout by our 800/1500 guys. And They don't need freaking 60min of it for a 2-4min race. Moran.

No one suggested 60 minutes of work was necessary until 2 posters before you.

No one suggested there wasn't a level of difficulty (although most would agree if it's that "hard" you're doing it wrong)

Thanks for playing, but the thread is filled with some good insights. Not sure yours qualifies.

Jakob does 2-3 workout days a week of double thresholds, which means that he might run over 50 minutes on each of these days at approximately 1 hr pace. For instance, he might do 3x10 minutes (usually about 3300-3400 meters each, I think) in the morning and 7x3 minutes in the afternoon or evening. That's 51 minutes of tempo. Other double threshold days are similar. He does 5x6:00 in the morning on another day and then a # of shorter intervals later, adding up to around 50 minutes total at tempo. So, he's actually getting maybe 17-18k at half marathon pace on these double threshold days. It's not the minimum. It's as much as he can handle, and he can handle a lot because the pace is not a killer for the distance of the intervals.

Interestingly enough, we probably don’t need to change much about how we run, if at all, at our level. Our bodies are amazing and have adapted ways to be as efficient as possible for the individual. There doesn’t seem to be “the running form”, at least per this evidence: https://serval.unil.ch/resource/serval:BIB_DF4A0BF175F9.P001/REF.pdf

This is it. Do a little more each time, sometimes a little faster or a little slower. Sometimes do a little less but faster, and a little more but slower. Especially when there is nothing concrete evidence wise on how to train (yes, all your fav coaching legends training philosophy is their opinion/twist on what evidence we have, not science, including Daniel’s).

Do what’s best for you. Will it take experimentation, success, failure, and at times injury? Probably. That’s the fun in it tho imo

Bingo! I use his approach, 4th week no problem! Avg miles over 100, 4 thresholds weekly, and I am ordinary runner.

It is easy to handle then you think, even for hobby joggers...

Yes we can run with efficient form in a fight or flight situation, but how long can you hold that efficient form?

We need thousands of hours of practice to make perfect performance in a race.

Because... Running is a Skill

This is true - if you run enough (70 mpw+) your body develops its own natural best form

Ive read and heard at least 3 diff definitions. 5k pace +30, half marathon pace, 10k pace 15 k pace. Didnt what's his name have his athletes doing 1 hour plus tempos multiple times per week (Bob....coached at UCLA in 70s)? Isnt JI doing them mutiple times per day? We are not all JI but it seems the human body can tolerate a good amount of tempo running/week.

The OP brings up an old question, so if you are doing 20min tempo and you get better, do you increase the minutes, or the tempo pace? Something like Daniles would have you looking up your new PR/ Vdot and adjusting pace. Which is better? They clearly are not the same.

Bob Larsen. A pox upon me.

Just to nerd up a bit, If you split up a threshold workout into pieces, like 4x 5 min...I dont understand why people take 2 or 3 min rest? Shouldnt you take 30 sec rest at most? Isnt the idea to accumulate work at that effort/HR? If you rest 2-3 min, you are taking the first min+ or so just to get back to that effort/HR? So 4x 5 min becomes 16 min max of cumulative threshold work. With faster stuff I understand 2-3 min rest. But why not take just a quick mental rest when doing tempos interval style? And im talking about short ones like 800-1600 or X x 3-5 minutes? Shouldnt we keep the recovery very very brief?

How much recovery does he take for these, and what time of recovery?

Thanks for sharing if you know!