Pete Julian should be fired

lazy take. so Rupp dropped a clean 2:06 low in 75 degree heat in Chicago last year? or he was never doping to begin with? which is it?

obviously Galen doesn't work with Pete but the comparison still applies.

She underachieved by getting 6th? I mean I suppose you could argue she should've been 4th or 5th but the top 3 were in another universe and Hailu and Ennaoui are both good athletes. We'll see on Sinclaire, but not sure if Ritz is the fairest comp as one of the most injury-prone runners ever.

After Brazier dropped out at trials last year because Julians "guidance" couldn't even get him to the trials healthy, I said exactly this and people were stricken with grief and anger about how I could possibly come up with such a take. Fast forward over a year and basically all his athletes now suck and it seems the overwhelming majority now see exactly how this is.

Thanks for pointing this out again - all of this is right on point.

Coach is banned for breaking WADA rules.
Athletes get worse.

Let's put this to rest. Julian is a very good coach. Unbelievable he's taking hits on this board.

The solid coaching:

Jessica Hull has improved every year under Julian. 2019 out in the semi-final, 2021 10th in the Final, 2022 7th in the Final. That's called improvement. She got covid at the World Championships this year, had to miss the 5000m and still managed to come back and make the Commonwealth Final. She's 25 years old. Check.

Sinclaire Johnson left BTC in the summer of 2021 with stress fracture (not sure where). She underperformed every single year under BTC. This year she's been brilliant. 2022 USA Champion after getting last in the USA Champ final in 2021. What more could an athlete do in one year? The women's 1500m on the global stage is insane right now and but for the big three, Sinclaire is right there. She's 24 years old. Check.

Raevyn Rogers. Bronze medal in Tokyo with a 1:56 and then a very solid year for 2022. Consistently ran 1:58 low but "only" finished 6th in the World. It is incredibly hard to make the USA team let alone the World Final in the women's 800. She's done it back to back years with Julian. She's 25 years old. Check.

Ella Donaghu. PBs in both the 5000 and 1500 in 2022 and part of the World Best DMR team in the winter. She's 24 years old. Check.

Koko Klosterhalfen. Every single person on the message boards who has followed her career knows that she showed up on the stage unhealthy and it would be miracle if she made it. Here we are in 2022 and she's still racing and looking healthier and stronger. Ok, maybe not as fast as 2019, but there are more important things. Did she not get a European Record in the 2 mile this season? If anything, this may be Julian's biggest coaching accomplishment. She's 25 years old. Check.

Shannon Rowbury. More or less retired now, but still on the roster. Fantastic career. AR in 1500 and 5K under Julian many years ago now. In her recent commentating, seems to still have great relationship with team and Julian. Check.

Suguru Osako: 2:05 marathon twice. 5th or 6th? at the Olympic Games last year. Top Japanese (that's saying something). Top non-African born in the world during 2020 and 2021. From the looks of his social media, he is unretired and Julian is still coaching him. He's 31. Check.

The still too soon to make a judgment:

Donavan Brazier. World Champ and AR in 2019. Started off brilliantly and has been sidetracked by major injuries since. That blame perhaps belongs to Julian or perhaps it belongs to Brazier. We all saw some small flashes when he was healthy this winter with his 400m exploits. As the Brojos say, talent doesn't go away. And there isn't any other 800 USA male doing a damn thing, so all our 800 coaches suck apparently. He's 25 and has a world Gold and a few American Records under Julian, so let's wait and see.

Charlie Hunter. Year one with the program. Has bombed in his 800s but has been quite brilliant in the 1500, running 3:34 low. He's faster than Teare and Hocker were this year if that's saying anything. Last year, he was the slowest of the trio in the 1500m.

The predictable coaching: It's not all home runs people.

Alexa Efraimson. Teen phenom. Over zealous HS coach that controlled her. Seems to be done. Typical story. Seems happy now. Good for her.

Jordan Hasay. Teen phenom. Over zealous pro coach that controlled her. Seems to be done. Typical story. Seems happy now. Good for her.

Shannon Osika. Not sure. Injured this spring? Was on DMR World Best team.

Craig Engels. Do any of us think that Craig Engels would be any better as an athlete in any other program?

I think that's all of them. EOT.

So basically when the athlete does well it's due to Julian but when they don't it's someone else's fault? CHECK.

Good, he should retire. Wasted talent and not serious at all on being an elite runner.

I agree with your analysis, but the alternative conclusion from said analysis, is not that Julian is a bad coach but that that Salazar was doping his athletes. Hard to know which conclusion is more likely.

The new union ac coach is waiting down on the central coast. haven't you been paying attention? 🙃

It's not that hard to see that one thing making "doping his athletes" less likely is a lengthy multi-year investigation into Salazar and NOP athletes and a prosecution that included "a wide range of evidence ... including eye-witness proof, testimonies, contemporaneous emails, and patient records. ... more than 2,000 exhibits, (and) 30 witnesses" leading to conclusions that implicated no NOP athletes. This was explicitly confirmed by the "prosecutor" USADA Chief Travis Tygart, and all of the evidence was made available and scrutinized/confirmed/accepted by the AAA Panel and CAS Panel, and again by a WADA investigation.

Another alternative conclusion is that Salazar was actually a better coach, and sometimes his exotic methods made possible with resources, such as cryogenic ice baths, underwater treadmills, weight training, post-race workouts, and post-workout massage, produced some superior results from some of his athletes. Although I seem to recall many even doubted Salazar's coaching skills, given the experiences of athletes like Webb, Hasay, Cain, Goucher, etc.

Since Salazar is serving a 4 year ban for doping violations I think it's pretty clear.

I read that Nike expose book. In a number of cases, he did put his athletes on medicines and such but it was under the legal limit. In one case, when he discovered a runner had asthma, he thought it was a good sign because asthma medicine could be performance-enhancing. He was usually exploiting loopholes but I don't know if he went over the line.

But I'm uneducated on these matters.

It took so long for the doping questions to come up I was thinking those comments were being removed. Yes my guess is that they are going from on the juice to off the juice in that group.

It is beyond obvious.

The guy admitted to putting all of his athletes on thyroid boosters, with or without a "prescription," and "testosterone medication" for some. (Was the specific medication ever named, though?)

100% agree. Looks to me that she needs to train high volume a la BTC in the off-season (though she clearly hates the longer harder work), and come down to more speedy work in the outdoor season.

It'll probably take a few seasons to work it out. She's happy doing the short, speedy work and it showed short-term success..but she needs to do some more very serious base work if she ever wants to challenge and go 3.55 and below.

Julian will be replaced by Thomas once his stint at UO is completed.

Why do you presume Johnson doesn’t do any strength work and just fast intervals? Has she said as much? Has Julian? I believe she just got sick of being chronically injured and not improving under the BTC program and didn’t feel like 10 miles tempos were making her better for the 1500, because they clearly were not. Besides, what good is an over saturation of strength work if it just leads to fatigue and last place finishes? Or worse yet, a broken body or chronic fatigue like the current top two Bowerman babes.

Julian also coaches Osako, pretty much the best marathoner not from Africa, so I’m sure he knows a thing or two about strength work. Hull and Rowbury have and did improve year after year with Julian, so why shouldn’t Johnson expect the same?

How many coaches in the country have touched 1:42 and 14 min women 5k runners?

Once you post a list of replacement coaches, will or should the group athletes believe in their training methods, theory and practice?

Lastly, How much more of an improvement should the public expect? The runners you listed are the top of the food chain. What gold medals every 2 & 4 years?

She moved to Portland/started training with Schumacher in October 2020. Her last race with BTC was July 2021. She spent 10 months actually with BTC total. She got her stress fracture in July 2021 and missed zero races from injury in the season until that point. Before that she was still in her old college setup even after going pro.

Obviously she is doing better with Pete than at BTC, but already seeing some mythmaking about her showing zero improvement (she PR'd in the 800 and broke 2 for the first time), being chronically injured, and being at BTC for multiple years.

I also note that in this thread whe Pete's athletes like Klosterhalfen and Brazier get stress fractures it's not Pete's fault, but when Johnson gets one with BTC it's because Schumacher is over training her.

You can't have it both ways.