Sat 5/14 is for the section finals. And Fri 5/27 is the state meet in Clovis.
But what exactly are the "Masters" that happen the week in between the section and state meets?
5/14 is Division Finals (D1-D4 separate)
You then qualify based on time from Division Finals to the Masters Meet (now all divisions together) to then try to qualify for State. *Its not a perfect system but it is what it is.
To elaborate further, unlike most other states California has a unified state track meet. No 1A, 2A, 3A, 4A championships. Just the best qualifiers from the 10 sections statewide. Each section has some sort of final qualifying meet that combines all the school divisions. In the Southern Section, the biggest and strongest section, the divisional finals held on 5/14 has four separate competitions for each of the divisions (based on school enrollment). The top nine finishers in each event regardless of division advances to the Masters Meet on 5/21. Athletes from Division 4, the small schools, usually have a difficult time getting into one of the top nine players. Each section statewide is allotted a quota of qualifying places. This is determined by relative strength of the sections. The Southern Section gets five qualifying spots. However, several years ago they decided that a number of outstanding athletes were being left out, esp. in stronger sections. So they came up with "at large" marks. These are set each year and are very stringent. For this year the at large mark in the boys' 3200 is 9:07.26. That means that if any runner beyond the first five runs 9:07.26 or better they also qualify for the State Meet. Thus it's possible to have all nine competitors get to the State Meet. The reality is that there may be several events where more than the allotted five places in the SS get to the State Meet and then only the five in other events. At large marks can only be considered from each sections qualifying meet. So marks made earlier in the season, like at Arcadia, are not counted. The at large system also helps weaker sections. You might have an outlier year in say the Oakland section, which only gets one qualifying place per event. So if there are two phenomenal 100 meter runners and the runner up meets the at large standard he joins the winner to the State Meet. There is more to say but this summarizes State Meet qualifying.
Let me get this straight. The entire Marmonte League (Which Newbury Park is in) had to change their pre-scheduled league finals meet so 4 elites could go run at Penn Relays?? What about the other 500+ kids?
I totally get where you are coming from. However sadly this is the reality of life the most talent gets the choice. When you become an adult it is the most money gets the choice. I watched a rich guy sit at black jack table in Vegas once and did not like the way people where playing so they kicked everyone off the table and let him have it to himself. On the other side of the table back in 1999 I was the top guy in our section I was in the bathroom right before the state qualifying race start they held the race up for me I let them know there is another guy coming from the bathroom also so they started the race without him. Newbury Park is such a dominant name in not just high school we are talking about a team that might take down a decent college team. A couple of there runners have world rankings now and Colin might be the best 18 and under in the world. What I am saying is they are viewed as first class there rival league schools don't get much say in the matter and just have to deal with it and stay out of there way.
You then qualify based on time from Division Finals to the Masters Meet (now all divisions together) to then try to qualify for State. *Its not a perfect system but it is what it is.
To elaborate further, unlike most other states California has a unified state track meet. No 1A, 2A, 3A, 4A championships. Just the best qualifiers from the 10 sections statewide. Each section has some sort of final qualifying meet that combines all the school divisions. In the Southern Section, the biggest and strongest section, the divisional finals held on 5/14 has four separate competitions for each of the divisions (based on school enrollment). The top nine finishers in each event regardless of division advances to the Masters Meet on 5/21. Athletes from Division 4, the small schools, usually have a difficult time getting into one of the top nine players. Each section statewide is allotted a quota of qualifying places. This is determined by relative strength of the sections. The Southern Section gets five qualifying spots. However, several years ago they decided that a number of outstanding athletes were being left out, esp. in stronger sections. So they came up with "at large" marks. These are set each year and are very stringent. For this year the at large mark in the boys' 3200 is 9:07.26. That means that if any runner beyond the first five runs 9:07.26 or better they also qualify for the State Meet. Thus it's possible to have all nine competitors get to the State Meet. The reality is that there may be several events where more than the allotted five places in the SS get to the State Meet and then only the five in other events. At large marks can only be considered from each sections qualifying meet. So marks made earlier in the season, like at Arcadia, are not counted. The at large system also helps weaker sections. You might have an outlier year in say the Oakland section, which only gets one qualifying place per event. So if there are two phenomenal 100 meter runners and the runner up meets the at large standard he joins the winner to the State Meet. There is more to say but this summarizes State Meet qualifying.
This is way more elaborate than the system in New York.
New York has 11 sections, which each have a meet to qualify for the state meet. Within each section, there are two divisions. Divisions. D1 is for schools with grades 10-12 enrollment of 600 students. D2 is 599 and under (i think these are the numbers anyway).
Two people from each event make it to states, from both d1 and d2. 1 relay from each division. There is also a standard to hit to get a 3rd competitor in from the section. d1 and d2 have different standards for this 3rd competitor. ANd then there is a super standard you can hit, which would allow unlimited entries who hit that time.
Once you get to states, d1 and d2 have separate championships in the sprints. but then the top 8 come together for what is called the federation championship. Distance events are mixed with d1 and d2 teams. They score the divisions separately, so there is a d1 and d2 champion. They also score them together to crown a federation champion.
I like our system. it works for what we have. California is quite a bit bigger, so they need to do something more extensive to sort it all out.
You then qualify based on time from Division Finals to the Masters Meet (now all divisions together) to then try to qualify for State. *Its not a perfect system but it is what it is.
To elaborate further, unlike most other states California has a unified state track meet. No 1A, 2A, 3A, 4A championships. Just the best qualifiers from the 10 sections statewide. Each section has some sort of final qualifying meet that combines all the school divisions. In the Southern Section, the biggest and strongest section, the divisional finals held on 5/14 has four separate competitions for each of the divisions (based on school enrollment). The top nine finishers in each event regardless of division advances to the Masters Meet on 5/21. Athletes from Division 4, the small schools, usually have a difficult time getting into one of the top nine players. Each section statewide is allotted a quota of qualifying places. This is determined by relative strength of the sections. The Southern Section gets five qualifying spots. However, several years ago they decided that a number of outstanding athletes were being left out, esp. in stronger sections. So they came up with "at large" marks. These are set each year and are very stringent. For this year the at large mark in the boys' 3200 is 9:07.26. That means that if any runner beyond the first five runs 9:07.26 or better they also qualify for the State Meet. Thus it's possible to have all nine competitors get to the State Meet. The reality is that there may be several events where more than the allotted five places in the SS get to the State Meet and then only the five in other events. At large marks can only be considered from each sections qualifying meet. So marks made earlier in the season, like at Arcadia, are not counted. The at large system also helps weaker sections. You might have an outlier year in say the Oakland section, which only gets one qualifying place per event. So if there are two phenomenal 100 meter runners and the runner up meets the at large standard he joins the winner to the State Meet. There is more to say but this summarizes State Meet qualifying.
Regarding the ‘at-large’ times- if I remember correctly and if things are still the same- these only apply at the Masters Meet qualifying to State- and not any other rounds such as CIF Division Finals. There’s been years when qualifying for CIF Masters in certain events is actually harder than qualifying for State. For example, an athlete may run under the State at-large time in the Division-2 Finals in the 3200, but be 13th across all 4 Division races and therefore not make the CIF Masters Meet. It’s especially frustrating for distance races where CIF Division Finals are supposed to be a scored Championship, but you essentially have to throw tactics out the window and just run as fast as possible so you can survive and advance.
On another note, to be a State Champion sprinter from the Southern Section, you can’t false start in 7 straight races (league prelims, league finals, CIF Div prelims, CIF Div finals, CIF Masters state prelims, State Finals)
Southern Section coaches either have chronic high blood pressure or they need to share their relaxation secrets.
You then qualify based on time from Division Finals to the Masters Meet (now all divisions together) to then try to qualify for State. *Its not a perfect system but it is what it is.
To elaborate further, unlike most other states California has a unified state track meet. No 1A, 2A, 3A, 4A championships. Just the best qualifiers from the 10 sections statewide. Each section has some sort of final qualifying meet that combines all the school divisions. In the Southern Section, the biggest and strongest section, the divisional finals held on 5/14 has four separate competitions for each of the divisions (based on school enrollment). The top nine finishers in each event regardless of division advances to the Masters Meet on 5/21. Athletes from Division 4, the small schools, usually have a difficult time getting into one of the top nine players. Each section statewide is allotted a quota of qualifying places. This is determined by relative strength of the sections. The Southern Section gets five qualifying spots. However, several years ago they decided that a number of outstanding athletes were being left out, esp. in stronger sections. So they came up with "at large" marks. These are set each year and are very stringent. For this year the at large mark in the boys' 3200 is 9:07.26. That means that if any runner beyond the first five runs 9:07.26 or better they also qualify for the State Meet. Thus it's possible to have all nine competitors get to the State Meet. The reality is that there may be several events where more than the allotted five places in the SS get to the State Meet and then only the five in other events. At large marks can only be considered from each sections qualifying meet. So marks made earlier in the season, like at Arcadia, are not counted. The at large system also helps weaker sections. You might have an outlier year in say the Oakland section, which only gets one qualifying place per event. So if there are two phenomenal 100 meter runners and the runner up meets the at large standard he joins the winner to the State Meet. There is more to say but this summarizes State Meet qualifying.
These are California at large qualifying times for 2022.
The reason, just an example, San Francisco Section winning mens 3200 10:05. Southern Section 8th place 9:07. They’ve made at large qualifying times so a 9:07 doesn’t stay home while a 10:05 goes to state.
I think what they've attempted to do is strike a balance between geographic representation and quality of performances. If they just went on performances alone several sections would probably be shut out of almost any qualifiers. There are a lot of inequities. For example, Oakland has its own section. If we went on population we could argue for separate sections for San Jose, Fresno, Sacramento, Long Beach and isolate San Diego city from the current San Diego section, which is comprised of San Diego County and Imperial County.
The big problem is CIF southern section. They have to run the following all a week apart:
1. League Champs
2. CIF Prelims
3. CIF Finals
4. Masters Champs
5 State Championship ( 800 and 1600 have a prelims the day before )
CIF Southern Section does this as other sections do not have as many qualifying rounds. This is ridiculous. No other section in California or the US does this to the kids
A couple hundred kids compete in the meet and the schedule change impacts all of them in some way. Maybe some impact is very minor and other impact is more extreme (like having to race 3200 meters twice in 2 days). Also, you have meet officials, timing people, volunteers, parents, school staff who are all impacted in some way. However minor the impact, it’s still all for 4 kids.
The Marmonte League championships was always two days. Nothing really changed. They Just put a few events on different days that were already scheduled. Coaches and AD's all decided to do this. Timers, coaches and officials are all the same. Even time between races are the same.
It's not a big deal at all. Way too much misinformation on these MB's
You’re making this sound like it’s business as usual. To these 4 boys and there coach, all of the inconvenience really seems like no big deal. There is always someone on the other side people like them don’t consider.
This does not happen every year in their league and it sounds like it was far from a unanimous decision. The schedule has always been the same and this is a change. How many kids would like to move a meet for a day because of a conflict?
The big problem is CIF southern section. They have to run the following all a week apart:
1. League Champs
2. CIF Prelims
3. CIF Finals
4. Masters Champs
5 State Championship ( 800 and 1600 have a prelims the day before )
CIF Southern Section does this as other sections do not have as many qualifying rounds. This is ridiculous. No other section in California or the US does this to the kids
The big problem is CIF southern section. They have to run the following all a week apart:
1. League Champs
2. CIF Prelims
3. CIF Finals
4. Masters Champs
5 State Championship ( 800 and 1600 have a prelims the day before )
CIF Southern Section does this as other sections do not have as many qualifying rounds. This is ridiculous. No other section in California or the US does this to the kids
Because, Example: San Francisco Section around 800k population. Southern Section 15 to 18 million population.
The only way to solve this problem is to split up the Southern Section and make new sections.
Why are people flipping out on this? I'm not sure about the Maramonte League's bylaws, but in the leagues I coached in CA... if there is a league schedule conflict due to AP testing, end of the year awards ceremony or anything, you simply ask the other league coaches to vote on it and they do. Never once did we turn down a request. One of the more common ones was to cancel prelims for either the 1600m or 800m and allow all participants to move onto the finals. If the 800 field was to large, we would seed the runners based on best time. It's no big deal and props to Brosnan for requesting this and the Maramonte League coaches for seeing and allowing the Penn Relays opportunity for NP runners. Gosh...some of you all need therapy. Blame the other coaches for voting FOR this....not Brosnan. I'm sure NO ONE was put under duress either to vote yes.
The big problem is CIF southern section. They have to run the following all a week apart:
1. League Champs
2. CIF Prelims
3. CIF Finals
4. Masters Champs
5 State Championship ( 800 and 1600 have a prelims the day before )
CIF Southern Section does this as other sections do not have as many qualifying rounds. This is ridiculous. No other section in California or the US does this to the kids
Because, Example: San Francisco Section around 800k population. Southern Section 15 to 18 million population.
The only way to solve this problem is to split up the Southern Section and make new sections.
They've been talking about breaking up the Southern Section for years. It's huge in area and population. There doesn't seem to be the political will to do it. I think they could easily break off the Inland Empire and make it a separate section. Make it all of San Bernardino & Riverside counties. Riverside County in particular, esp. the southwestern part around Temecula and Murrieta, has seen enormous growth and we've seen some terrific track athletes from schools like Great Oak and Vista Murrieta.
high school xc coach why the hate. If you got rid of the hate and focused on coaching your runners you can put a dent in that 99.9999% of the so called advantage.
i have no hate. ive never complained that they are lucky enough to get to have an altitude camp, and travel the country for 12 months per year. now, they are also getting to inconvenience everybody else so they can all of their things in set up in a row. it sets an ugly precedent. where does this end? will the same thing happen next year?
Well go after the problem and be part of the solution. Do you know how many schools have altitude camps in CA? Hundreds! And do not say it is only the "rich" schools. I used to live in Mammoth Lakes and I know the area very well and wanted to take the "poor" school in the ghetto up there I taught and coached at to create an experience as well and you know what I did....I fund raised and we camped for a week all 5 years I coached there. After year 1....it took off as the kids wanted to go back the next year and word spread. After that money was never the issue.
do you have to run league to enter sections/state in Cali?
not the way it is in NY. you hit a qualifying time at any point in the season to go to the state qualifier (sectionals).
Yes you do. CA HS grad here.
You didn't have to run league to run at sections/state in my league.
In our league, each team could only enter 3 athletes per event. Then, the section qualifying meet was based on hitting a time standard, so you could have more than 3 per event. Then, at the section championship, the top 3 per event qualified for the state meet. There was also an auto-qualifier time, so more than 3 could go if it was a really fast race. So, for Newbury Park, they would only be able to send 3 to league in the 3200, but would maybe have 6 guys that qualify for the state meet if they run fast at their section championship. (Assuming the southern section has the same number of qualifiers allotted as my home section, they may have more).
So, unless they have different rules, the 4xmile kids skipping league wouldn't preclude them from running the rest of the post-season.
It seems this thread has gone down a rabbit hole about the difficulty of the CA system. I’d like to refocus on my original point and the bottom line as I see it:
Is the CA system overly arduous and complicated? Yes
Should the CA system be overhauled and streamlined? Probablyyes
Should one team with a few elites be able to change a pre-published schedule to accommodate their desire to compete in an elite, non-CIF meet, affecting many many other athletes? ABSOLUTELYNOT
Should one team with a few elites be able to change a pre-published schedule to accommodate their desire to compete in an elite, non-CIF meet, affecting many many other athletes? ABSOLUTELYNOT
Read my post above...other coaches in the league have to vote on such schedule changes and if they approve...why does this thread even matter?
Why are people flipping out on this? I'm not sure about the Maramonte League's bylaws, but in the leagues I coached in CA... if there is a league schedule conflict due to AP testing, end of the year awards ceremony or anything, you simply ask the other league coaches to vote on it and they do. Never once did we turn down a request. One of the more common ones was to cancel prelims for either the 1600m or 800m and allow all participants to move onto the finals. If the 800 field was to large, we would seed the runners based on best time. It's no big deal and props to Brosnan for requesting this and the Maramonte League coaches for seeing and allowing the Penn Relays opportunity for NP runners. Gosh...some of you all need therapy. Blame the other coaches for voting FOR this....not Brosnan. I'm sure NO ONE was put under duress either to vote yes.
unless the marmonte league operates different than the rest of the world, it was probably 2 or 3 people making the decision. not every other coach getting an actual vote. but maybe im wrong.
It seems this thread has gone down a rabbit hole about the difficulty of the CA system. I’d like to refocus on my original point and the bottom line as I see it:
Is the CA system overly arduous and complicated? Yes
Should the CA system be overhauled and streamlined? Probablyyes
Should one team with a few elites be able to change a pre-published schedule to accommodate their desire to compete in an elite, non-CIF meet, affecting many many other athletes? ABSOLUTELYNOT
i agree with you, but i don't think it's the end of the world. especially after they skipped it last year? doesn't seem like they respect the CIF. if it works for them cool,,if not, they've got bigger and better things to do. I don't think it's right to cater to that mindset. sets a bad precedent.
but again, i don't think it's the end of the world. i think most people have said their piece and moved on.
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