super shoes,plus EPO and in some cases steroids.Some nations doped with impunity,and now the rest of the world has caught up.
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super shoes,plus EPO and in some cases steroids.Some nations doped with impunity,and now the rest of the world has caught up.
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People aren't fairplay.
Everyone that is whining about "Drugs" advantage is a loser.
Never use a weapon that can returned against you.
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Coevett wrote:
There has been a genuine revival in athletics performance in the traditional places such as the US, Australia, GB.
This is due to many things, including increased testing in Africa, and a related increase in belief among young non-African runners that they can compete at the top without doping. Youngsters can watch Seb Coe or Steve Cram on YouTube and realize that when they come on here and read old farts telling them that you need Bernard Lagat 'Kalenji' genes to run sub 3:30 in the 1500, it really is just a bunch of old weirdo farts.
Throw in fitness trackers, Strave, social media etc, also possibly in the case of GB middle-distance running, the import of foreign football players in to the Premier League, making other sports for the natves attractive again. It's ironic but the importing of West African footballers in to Europe has indirectly played a part in Europe again being competitive with East African middle-distance runners.
lol. Every time I read your posts I can't resist but to smile.
And I swear I don't hate you.
Will you jubile a month in LRC site when one of your favorites get a WR?
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rekrunner wrote:
Super shoes wrote:
Hobbs Kessler broke the HS 1500m record without super shoes.
Yared Nuguse broke the collegiate 3k record without super shoes.
Morgan B. ran the 3rd fastest joke ever without super shoes.
The elite 1500, 5k, and 10k times last year were slower than they were at points before super shoes.
I’m conclusion, it’s not the shoes.
Running in a pack with others wearing supershoes also benefits the non-supershoe wearer.
Don't know who downvoted you, but you are right if the non super shoe runner is drafting the runners
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Four major factors affecting the WR frequency trend in running today:
* Shoe tech is very significant on roads, and slightly better on the track.
* Doping at the elite level has likely decreased since the 90s and 00s.
* Elite training improvement is slowing down
* Elite competition has high variance from year to year, and has inherent positive feedback pushing others to match the top level.
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runn wrote:
I started running in 1971. The shoes then make minimalist shoes now supportive.
Seriously, if shoes didn't advance they way they have been I would never have been able to run post high school. I spent more time injured than healthy.
New, more supportive/cushioned shoes and I can run, train more and better and race faster as a result. I'm 62 and I can still run daily.
Yes, it's the shoes and it always has been.
The adidas titan was a damn good and cushioned shoe from back in the day. Stack up to any shoe prior to 2016.
Fair?
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Below is an average of NCAA outdoor times in the 5,000 and 10,000 starting in 2013 and ending in '21 (threw out 2020). The times were pulled from the top 25 times listed on USTFCCCA (I didn't add in the additional times listed below the top 25). Some athletes were listed more than once.
NCAA Outdoor 5,000
2013 - 13:40.6
2014 - 13:36.4
2015 - 13:41.3
2016 - 13:35
2017 - 13:40.7
2018 - 13:35
2019 - 13:36.1
2021 - 13:24.5
NCAA Outdoor 10,000
2013 - 28:56.7
2014 - 28:41.8
2015 - 28:46
2016 - 28:54
2017 - 28:39.6
2018 - 28:46.7
2019 - 28.37
2021 - 28.11.5
I didn't have the time or patience to do indoor or go back before 2013 but it would be interesting to see.
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Liberals are beyond logic at this point. The old democratic party you once worshipped, has morphed into a dark place. Your body, your choice...
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Armstronglivs wrote:
Running fans are so naive. There is a lot more science goes into drugs than shoes, and drugs have become more and more prevalent in the sport over the last few decades. You all imagine your "clean" heroes are beating doped competitors. If athletes gain advantage - however small - from their shoes, why would they forgo even greater advantage from drugs that almost always can't be detected?
The dopers are always ahead of the testing. It just takes small changes in the molecular structure of these drugs to evade the current tests.
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Coevett wrote:
rekrunner wrote:
This assumes far too much.
No trend with any proven doping or doping testing milestone was as significant in both terms of quantity and quality, as the introduction of the new shoe technology.
You're too funny.
It was generally agreed in the time of Ovett, Coe, Cram that athletes were reaching the limits of potential. Yet in little more than a decade you had El G running sub 3:30 literally every week, and almost four seconds faster than peak Cram and Aouita pushing each other to the limit in Nice. And a host of other runners producing similar ridiculous times.
Super shoe times do not compare (yet) with the destruction of records brought about by EPO. The 1980's was the absolute peak of middle-distance running in terms of natural talents and depth. Yet their times were made to look mediocre in the 1990's by a collection of guys who we probably would never even have heard of if they hadn't been injecting EPO every single day and night.
Do you think your white Europeans weren’t involved in chemistry in the 80s? Get real.
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I can't think of the last time I saw a really super tactical race. Even then, I think fitness was already there, it was just never demonstrated obviously like it is today. Take a look at ncaas for track this past year: practically everyone pr'd there in the distance events. I think this has less to do with shoes and more to do with running like a wuss becoming uncool. And even when it is the shoes, I think so much of it is mental over physical. Yes they probably do bring some benefit but to put them on, have them feel good, and reassure yourself that everyone is breaking records in them reinforces everything about your mentality. And, I truly believe that in terms of high school, running is just becoming more popular and therefore exposed to more kids. The amount of people we had break 9 in the 3200 was absolute insanity last year
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Joe+Mama wrote:
I can't think of the last time I saw a really super tactical race. Even then, I think fitness was already there, it was just never demonstrated obviously like it is today. Take a look at ncaas for track this past year: practically everyone pr'd there in the distance events. I think this has less to do with shoes and more to do with running like a wuss becoming uncool. And even when it is the shoes, I think so much of it is mental over physical. Yes they probably do bring some benefit but to put them on, have them feel good, and reassure yourself that everyone is breaking records in them reinforces everything about your mentality. And, I truly believe that in terms of high school, running is just becoming more popular and therefore exposed to more kids. The amount of people we had break 9 in the 3200 was absolute insanity last year
The issue I have with your post is you could say a tailwind the whole way is partly placebo in terms of fast times. Even if a tailwind makes you think you can go faster, the fact is it does whether you think it does or not. This is also true of the shoes and the fast track.
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Youre only partially correct.The real reason is,that many countries are playing catch up,and a lot more athletes are doping these days.Mass doping,in order to be competitive on a world stage.Theres no such thing as clean at that level.It gets highly suspicious when for example,there are 3 young british women in the olympic 800 meter final,running times that even the juiced russians struggled to run.Theyre certainly not just eating porridge and yams.
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RustyBootsHRG wrote:
Coevett wrote:
You're too funny.
It was generally agreed in the time of Ovett, Coe, Cram that athletes were reaching the limits of potential. Yet in little more than a decade you had El G running sub 3:30 literally every week, and almost four seconds faster than peak Cram and Aouita pushing each other to the limit in Nice. And a host of other runners producing similar ridiculous times.
Super shoe times do not compare (yet) with the destruction of records brought about by EPO. The 1980's was the absolute peak of middle-distance running in terms of natural talents and depth. Yet their times were made to look mediocre in the 1990's by a collection of guys who we probably would never even have heard of if they hadn't been injecting EPO every single day and night.
Do you think your white Europeans weren’t involved in chemistry in the 80s? Get real.
Oh yeah, 125 lb Coe the hardcore steroid user. Ovett didn't even chase world records when at his peak in 1977/78, but he was willing to take every ped available to get an edge. And as for Crammy, his parents couldn't even afford to buy him a proper pair of running shoes when he became the youngest Brit to run a sub 4 minute mile, but obviously they were finanching his teenage trips to the latest GDR labs.
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Coevett wrote:
RustyBootsHRG wrote:
Do you think your white Europeans weren’t involved in chemistry in the 80s? Get real.
Oh yeah, 125 lb Coe the hardcore steroid user. Ovett didn't even chase world records when at his peak in 1977/78, but he was willing to take every ped available to get an edge. And as for Crammy, his parents couldn't even afford to buy him a proper pair of running shoes when he became the youngest Brit to run a sub 4 minute mile, but obviously they were finanching his teenage trips to the latest GDR labs.
All the Kenyans are very well known to come from rich families. They all get 200$ shoes at age of 5. And all of them start doping with the newest drugs available at age 8.
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Jo72 wrote:
Drugs can be detected and a bust is often career ending. The shoes are legal, thus no risk and the best explanation for a broad improvement, not merely at the very top but also a bit below, like among national class, college or the best HS athletes. In Europe athletes who are not full professionals and not guaranteed national team spots but a bit below (which does not mean they are not taking drugs but it seems hardly worth the risk of the shame and blame for being 5th best marathon runner in Germany and making a few 1000 Euros a year from sponsors) that have clearly improved on a large scale, most obviously in marathon and half but now also indoors. Drugs are not excluded but these improvements and the shoes since ca. 2019 are such an obvious correlation that it would be foolish to discount the benefits of the supershoes. I don't think it's more than ~1-2 sec. in the 1500m/mile etc. but this is obviously enough to push a few more sub 4 mile or sub 3:38 or whatever. And the bonus might be disproportionally more in the 3k and longer.
Drugs will skew any attempt to accurately measure the effect of shoes on elite and pro performances in competition.
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EPO is way cheaper and more available in Kenya (or at least until recently) than the latest cutting edge GDR steroids in the UK in the 1970's and 80's. Further, it's a professional sport now and Italian and Spanish managers are exploiting young Kenyan runners to enrich themselves. You could not never go down to your high street pharmacy in Gateshead in 1977 and get some roids prescription free for the price of a loaf of bread, as you could get EPO for most of the last 20 years in Iten.
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jeff tallon wrote:
Youre only partially correct.The real reason is,that many countries are playing catch up,and a lot more athletes are doping these days.Mass doping,in order to be competitive on a world stage.Theres no such thing as clean at that level.It gets highly suspicious when for example,there are 3 young british women in the olympic 800 meter final,running times that even the juiced russians struggled to run.Theyre certainly not just eating porridge and yams.
No, you're wrong. GB has re-emerged because of increased testing in East and North Africa and a consequent levelling of the playing field again. Shoes and tracks must be at least 3 seconds faster since the Soviet days. Then you add in better training, physio, facilities, fitness watches etc.
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