Golden God wrote:
Talent, but watching her running form makes my blood run cold. Seems like she's about to get injured on every stride.
Torsional abnormalities are normally well tolerated - probably nothing to do with her stress fracture whatsoever.
Golden God wrote:
Talent, but watching her running form makes my blood run cold. Seems like she's about to get injured on every stride.
Torsional abnormalities are normally well tolerated - probably nothing to do with her stress fracture whatsoever.
Flagpole wrote:
bigmig19 wrote:
Good Grief, 16 min on 15-20MPW. Talent is definitely a thing.
It is impressive for her to run that on such low mileage. Having been a low mileage HS guy (9-15 MPW) who then ended up being a very high mileage post college guy (100-140 MPW for a 3 year stretch), I can give my first hand anecdotal evidence that there aren't necessarily big gains to be had with increased mileage. I ran 15:48 in high school, and my 5,000 PR ended up being 14:58.
Hopefully she finds some optimal training that works well for her.
You went from 15:48 to 14:58 by increasing mileage...if she does the same she'll be in the top 10 all-time US women.
a.a wrote:
The low mileage is excellent for her long-term development. Her form is conducive to injuries, especially with higher mileage so staying low until this is corrected is best.
This.
I'm terrified if she goes to college and the first thing her coach does is force her up to 50+ MPW.
irunfastXC wrote:
a.a wrote:
The low mileage is excellent for her long-term development. Her form is conducive to injuries, especially with higher mileage so staying low until this is corrected is best.
This.
I'm terrified if she goes to college and the first thing her coach does is force her up to 50+ MPW.
congrats to Natalie! Great feat to accomplish. Having all your high school years marred by COVID can't have been easy. As a member of the class of 2022, she only had one normal high school year. But she made the best of it as a senior and made history.
Natalie seems like a great student athlete, and it's impossible to say who will come out on top in 4 years and who will pursue other interests.
Think about it, not too long ago we were touting Hasay, Brasovan, Chetelat, and Knight and Weisenbach and Chapus.
But from that generation came Quigley, Infeld, Houlihan (until recently lol), Schneider, and Seidel.
A few things. Low mileage is overrated. Low mileage runners can have difficulty playing catch up and succumb to injury more easily than higher mileage runners. It's not necessarily great to have low mileage. It doesn't always mean they have a great upside.
Second, more than one great runner can exist you guys. It doesn't have to be Tuohy or nothing. Katelyn was one of the greatest ever. She too would have probably one two national titles in at least one of the years if New York allowed runners to compete at both regionals.
Katelyn has also had some of her records already broken recently. Jenna Hutchins broke her 5K XC. Also, Mary Cain has technically ran a faster mile while in high school (not HS record as she wasn't competing FOR a high school). Sarah Baxter was undefeated for all but one of her races. Elise Cranny and Alexa E also posted amazing times in those years.
Lastly, it's impossible to say if Natalie gets injured or not but let's let her live for now. I guess we'll see how things pan out. Plenty of runners are predicted to suffer injury and don't in college. Plenty of runners go into college with the whole world ahead of them and it doesn't pan out that way. Let's just wait and see.
irunfastXC wrote:
a.a wrote:
The low mileage is excellent for her long-term development. Her form is conducive to injuries, especially with higher mileage so staying low until this is corrected is best.
This.
I'm terrified if she goes to college and the first thing her coach does is force her up to 50+ MPW.
Natalie Cook's dad is a running coach and her mom is a former outstanding runner herself. This is not some clueless family. There is no chance of them letting her college coach triple her mileage.
I talked to Natalie about this in December at Eastbay, and she told me that she thinks she can continue to keep her mileage low and still improve with various kinds of cross training. So that is what they are going to stick with. (I have no idea if the low mileage strategy will allow her to get much faster, but that's what they've decided to do.)
It's Dave Smith, so it's entirely possible. I'm actually a bit surprised this was her college of choice, considering her training philosophy.
The low mileage high cross trainers need to stay with that. It also means that gains will probably stop before you think, but that is just the nature of v8 in a Yugo.
`` wrote:
You went from 15:48 to 14:58 by increasing mileage...if she does the same she'll be in the top 10 all-time US women.
In 5 years, being able to run 14:58 will likely be necessary to get an auto qualifier into a US Final
16 min on 10-15mpw?! So impressive but also just goes to show that there are many different training methods to achieve the same goals. It doesn't specify what pace Natalie's runs were completed at, but one can imagine the bulk of it being fast workouts. I have often wondered if you can you get the same kind of results from even just 10 minutes a day of very hard all out running as somebody doing 40 mile weeks or more averaging 7 min miles or slower.
Jack Drag wrote:
Kamin wrote:
Well obviously the thread title should be changed to 15-20 miles per week. Am I missing something? She did 10 for awhile but now it is 15-20. This also reminds me a bit of Badger miles in Madison. The way people count miles can be misleading. Some might not even count warmups and cooldowns.
Warmups and cooldowns should not be counted! They are just preparing and after-treatment to avoid injuries.
Wrong. Warm-up and cool-downs should be counted towards weekly mileage. You are running and heart rate is above what it would be at rest.
I recall from xc nationals time that her low mileage was due to being injury prone, which was itself due to her unusual running form. If they can fix her form at Ok State, who knows what she can do? But that's easier said than done.
Flagpole wrote:
It is impressive for her to run that on such low mileage. Having been a low mileage HS guy (9-15 MPW) who then ended up being a very high mileage post college guy (100-140 MPW for a 3 year stretch), I can give my first hand anecdotal evidence that there aren't necessarily big gains to be had with increased mileage. I ran 15:48 in high school, and my 5,000 PR ended up being 14:58.
Hopefully she finds some optimal training that works well for her.
My God. You ran 15:49 on 15 mpw and then got up to over 100 mpw for 3 years and your lifetime PB is only 14:58? Wow. It proves David Epstein's book is correct - people respond to training differently and some people don't respond at all.
As for Cook, yes she has lots of potential but the question is will she eventually be able to run more. I had a ton of stress fractures in HS and thought it was impossible to even run 40 mpw but eventually got up to over 100. But I had a guy at Cornell who had a ton of stress fractures in HS who also got them in college so we had to keep him at like 30 mpw.
rojo wrote:
Flagpole wrote:
It is impressive for her to run that on such low mileage. Having been a low mileage HS guy (9-15 MPW) who then ended up being a very high mileage post college guy (100-140 MPW for a 3 year stretch), I can give my first hand anecdotal evidence that there aren't necessarily big gains to be had with increased mileage. I ran 15:48 in high school, and my 5,000 PR ended up being 14:58.
Hopefully she finds some optimal training that works well for her.
My God. You ran 15:49 on 15 mpw and then got up to over 100 mpw for 3 years and your lifetime PB is only 14:58? Wow. It proves David Epstein's book is correct - people respond to training differently and some people don't respond at all.
As for Cook, yes she has lots of potential but the question is will she eventually be able to run more. I had a ton of stress fractures in HS and thought it was impossible to even run 40 mpw but eventually got up to over 100. But I had a guy at Cornell who had a ton of stress fractures in HS who also got them in college so we had to keep him at like 30 mpw.
On a related note, does anyone know if Ceili McCabe’s big improvement this season arose following increased mileage, a unique blend of running & cross-training, or more weight-work in the gym? I was looking forward to some great McCabe/Tuohy battles to rival Kelati/Monson and McDonald/Fisher, but seeing Cook, Hutchins or anyone else stay healthy & challenge the Mountaineer over the next few years would be equally entertaining.
Thanks for the article. Any idea what the cross training consists of? Now that I'm old, this is pretty much what I (and I'm sure many others) do. Although on my off days, it's just walking.
Elliptical
I would worry that someone who gets injured on such little mileage has some issues with under-fueling (not necessarily an eating disorder--sometimes it's just not eating enough for the added workload unintentionally). Talent is great and all, but if you can't handle higher training loads as you get older that puts a ceiling on your development even if your floor is very high.
There is a direct correlation between increased weight and increased injuries. 90% of the human population is not capable of training without getting injured. Even out of the self selected population of runners, many get injured and hang up the sport during high school.
zxcvzcxv wrote:
I recall from xc nationals time that her low mileage was due to being injury prone, which was itself due to her unusual running form. If they can fix her form at Ok State, who knows what she can do? But that's easier said than done.
Natalie Cook has a condition called knock knees. While many people think she just has unusual running form it's more than that. Her condition has a big impact on her walking too.
It's not the type of thing a coach can fix.
fffdxxxxx wrote:
Golden God wrote:
Talent, but watching her running form makes my blood run cold. Seems like she's about to get injured on every stride.
Torsional abnormalities are normally well tolerated - probably nothing to do with her stress fracture whatsoever.
Yes, bad form is not a thing for injury. Twisting your natural gait into something new 20,000 steps a day cant be good. A little tweak of arms, relax, get stronger. Thats about what we can change IMO.
Every year i have some runner terrified that some coach told them they are a heel striker! You film them and show them they are actually striking under COG ( most of the time) and a few videos of Elle Purrier and their fears subside. There are multiple elite marathoners that look just like this gal.
She is not mentioned in this preview
https://huskyclassic.runnerspace.com/eprofile.php?event_id=11&do=news&news_id=632853
and she is not at least yet in the accepted entries
https://arkansasrazorbacks.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Husky-Accepted-Entries.pdf