UPenn swimmer comes out as trans / switches to women's team after competing on men's team for 3 years and is dominating NCAA

dullard wrote:

Simone Biles (although I doubt a man could beat a woman in women's gymnastics any more than a woman could beat a man in men's gymnastics)

There's not really any reason why men can't do women's gymnastics and there's basically no skills the women do that the man can't already do. The only problem is they might need to where a cup while doing beam. The women on the other hand would struggle with the upper body strenght intensive men's apparatus especially rings.

Of course, women on rings (and to a lesser extent pommel horse) would be much worse than that guy doing uneven bars and beam in the video. But that would not negate the point made by that poster.

Daily Mail has come out with a long story about Thomas with many photos not seen elsewhere:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10266627/Fury-unfair-competition-trans-swimmer-smashing-womens-records.html

What I don't get is why is it viewed as inuhumane to have her finish out her career on the men's team?

By the trans logic, she has lived her whole life as the wrong gender and done just fine so why can't she swim in those competitions for a little bit longer. Practice with the girls team. Swin the 94 seconds for the boys team. You are in your own damn lane and not interacting with anyone anyway.

Do people not understand why so many people don't trust vaccines and what not? The people in charge say "Follow the science" but they only do it when it's convenient for them.

People are so afraid to be called intolerant. I'd love it if every women's team competing against Penn for the rest of the season just forfeited.

As I said the other day, "JR math canalso solve these problem. Who should be inconvenienced? a) One trans swimmer or b) the entire team competing against her?" Answer is a.

Can someone remind me...

Did the testosterone suppression program make her shoulders any narrower, arms any shorter, hands and feet any smaller, or even make her any shorter?

Seriously, can you remind me how it changed all those things that are beneficial for swimming?

RossiCheated wrote:

Can someone remind me...

Did the testosterone suppression program make her shoulders any narrower, arms any shorter, hands and feet any smaller, or even make her any shorter?

Seriously, can you remind me how it changed all those things that are beneficial for swimming?

I know your questions are rhetorical, but because so many people today are insistent on denying reality when it comes to this issue, I'm going to answer as if they are not.

No, testosterone suppression does not change any of the aspects of physique that you mentioned. Nor does T suppression change the fact that between the mini puberty of infancy and the longer puberty of adolescence, Thomas will have developed a heart that is 25-38% larger and more powerful than would have been in the case if Thomas were female, and lungs that are 10-12% larger and stronger.

In utero, infancy and adolescence, human males develop a host of physical characteristics that give them huge advantages over females in nearly all sports. Testosterone suppression later on in life does not remove all these advantages. In fact, with the exception of hemoglobin levels, T suppression doesn't reduce any of the male physical advantages in an appreciable way. Males on T reduction might become less physically competitive compared to other males, but that doesn't mean it puts them on the same level as females.

World Rugby looked at the evidence for and against inclusion in women's sports of males who identify as women and suppress their T, and concluded it's patently unfair to female athletes, and in the case of rugby poses a huge safety risk to female participants as well.

The UK Sports Council also did a comprehensive review of the evidence and came to same conclusions as World Rugby: inclusion of males in female sports comes at the cost of fairness for females. And it means girls and women will be excluded from our own sports, just as we have been excluded from having input into the policy decisions on this topic made by male-dominated sports bodies like the NCAA and IOC.

This is good. We need more top men not only competing but demolishing women’s sports. It will speed up the rules committees to ban men from women’s sports.

Seriously, a 10.00 100m runner, a 3:55 miler and 13:20 5k runner won’t win many men’s races on the global scene. But go to the women’s side and you can smash every world record. Really, a quality man could set the WR from 800 to 10k in one season. Possible even the 400m. That’s a lot of WR bonus money plus diamond league events you could win the season title in multiple events in the same year. Then they’ll hopefully ban men from women’s sports.

sbeefyk2 wrote:

This is good. We need more top men not only competing but demolishing women’s sports. It will speed up the rules committees to ban men from women’s sports.

Seriously, a 10.00 100m runner, a 3:55 miler and 13:20 5k runner won’t win many men’s races on the global scene. But go to the women’s side and you can smash every world record. Really, a quality man could set the WR from 800 to 10k in one season. Possible even the 400m. That’s a lot of WR bonus money plus diamond league events you could win the season title in multiple events in the same year. Then they’ll hopefully ban men from women’s sports.

For distance running, there's only one data point which is June Eastwood who slowed down by about 30 seconds per mile after receiving hormone treatments. A similar decrease would slow your 13:20 guy to 14:50.

I would feel like the biggest a**hole ever by doing something like this.

If I transitioned, I'd still compete but I'd make it fair (race the men) or just swim for your own goals (try to PR, swim x-times per year, or distance goals).

N of 1 is not reliable.

Who knows if they trained as hard, or went all-out.

Bingo! 100 percent agree with this, there's no debate.

dog pound wrote:

I would feel like the biggest a**hole ever by doing something like this.

If I transitioned, I'd still compete but I'd make it fair (race the men) or just swim for your own goals (try to PR, swim x-times per year, or distance goals).

And this post as well. Amazing how people can take records that they know they've achieved by cheating.

dog pound wrote:

SDSU Aztec wrote:

For distance running, there's only one data point which is June Eastwood who slowed down by about 30 seconds per mile after receiving hormone treatments. A similar decrease would slow your 13:20 guy to 14:50.

N of 1 is not reliable.

Who knows if they trained as hard, or went all-out.

Of course, and that's why I noted there's only one transgender distance runner for which to compare times.

Before the NCAA Regionals, there was an article where June said she wanted to qualify for nationals. She was right on pace until a massive positive split at near the end so it's seems she was trying her hardest. The Penn swimmer is certainly holding nothing back.

came to say wrote:

People on the left are the most evil despicable people in the world. The only way they can live with their extreme immorality is by pretending. They either pretend this is normal or pretend the things they voted for had nothing to do with this outcome. Every thing they claim to love they actually hate. In this case equal rights for women.

I know, right? I mean those despicable leftists like the rapist Kavagnaugh and the serial sex offender trump and the sex offender Bill O'Reilly and the sex offender Roger Ailes and the kiddie porn possessor Alex Jones and the pedophile Roy Moore and the gay rapist Jim Jordan and the pedophile rapist Strom Thurman and the rest of the endless list. How can we let them get away with it?

Pathetic. Not sure how you look at yourself in the mirror if you're sandbagging like this.

rojo wrote:

Do people not understand why so many people don't trust vaccines and what not? The people in charge say "Follow the science" but they only do it when it's convenient for them.

Umm...who are "they"? CDC or FDA has never been involved in any decision regarding the trans women's participation in sports.

Only a cynical conspiracy theorist would believe that "THEY" are out there to screw ordinary people, and CDC, FDA, IOC, NCAA are all part of THEM.

But, of course, this kind of ridiculous argument increases the page view count of your website. So that's good for your business.

dog pound wrote:

SDSU Aztec wrote:

For distance running, there's only one data point which is June Eastwood who slowed down by about 30 seconds per mile after receiving hormone treatments. A similar decrease would slow your 13:20 guy to 14:50.

N of 1 is not reliable.

Who knows if they trained as hard, or went all-out.

Also, the claim that June Eastwood is the only data point is untrue.

In a study published in the British Journal of Sports Medicine a year ago, 46 trans-identified male members of the US Air Force were medically monitored and underwent fitness testing before they began T suppression and exogenous estrogen as well as two years afterwards. It found

that before starting their hormone treatment trans women performed 31% more push-ups and 15% more sit-ups in one minute on average than a biological women younger than 30 in the air force – and ran 1.5 miles 21% faster.

Yet after suppressing their testosterone for two years – a year longer than IOC guidelines [then in place] – they were still 12% faster [running 1.5 miles] on average than biological females.

Even Joanna Harper, the trans activist who played a major role in the IOC's 2015 decision to open up women's competition to males who claim to have a "female gender identity" and suppress their T for 12 months, now says that after 36 months on T suppression and exogenous estrogen, males who identify as women still have more muscle and lean body mass than females.

Harper has also noted elsewhere that the most significant physical changes that males experience when they suppress T and take estrogen occur over the course of the first 12 months. All of this undermines the claim long made by male trans activists that after they've been on T suppression for a certain amount of time, they inevitably lose all their male advantage - and, as many like CeCe Telfer have claimed, they actually become severely physically disadvantaged compared to female athletes.

No, actual competitive distance runners will provide the best analysis. Number of push-ups is meaningless.

SDSU Aztec wrote:

Of course, and that's why I noted there's only one transgender distance runner for which to compare times.

Before the NCAA Regionals, there was an article where June said she wanted to qualify for nationals. She was right on pace until a massive positive split at near the end so it's seems she was trying her hardest. The Penn swimmer is certainly holding nothing back.

Why do you keep saying June Eastwood is the only trans-identified distance runner who has race times that can be looked at and which matter? Megan Youngren keeps breaking course records in women's marathons and trouncing female runners by considerable margins, usually taking first or second place in the women's field. In this marathon in September 2021, Youngren was first amongst male and female finishers both - and beat the guy who was declared the men's winner by 22 minutes.

Then there are individuals like Tiffany Newell who recently was named second-place women's finisher in a Canadian master's 8k because Newell "identifies as" and registers for running events as "female gender."

Meh, who cares. This doesn't affect you so might as well live and let live.