If Kipchoge wins in 11 days, he’ll dethrone K.B. as the G.O.A.T. distance runner

First, the OP is about who is the goat IF EK wins the Olympic marathon again. Second, both their careers continue. If KB wants to get spanked, he can run a few more marathons against EK. Would that change your mind? Third, if you already are the greatest marathoner of all time, undisputed, then you certainly do merit consideration as the greatest distance runner of all time. EK found his perfect distance when he went to 42.2 and then he dominated like no other. Yes, the greatest marathoner ever can be considered the greatest distance runner ever even if they were merely great on the track. Not all events are equal, I’m sorry. Better to be the greatest 100 m runner than 200 m runner, better to be the greatest marathon runner of all time than 10K runner. That’s just the way it is. It counts for more.

EK has only won 2 golds over worlds, Olympics and World XC. Bekele has won 20 plus. It's not even close and it's insulting to even consider. Anyone arguing this is delusional.

several records fell after the lockdown or rather, after the world started opening up after the lockdown.

It is also important to note that even before COVID, athletes n the '90s and 2000s used to run a lot in the golden league circuit and fatigue as well as injuries were a major factor.

The Bekeles, Hailes, Dibabas and Defars broke records while carrying through a very heavy programme/schedule which doesn't exist any more.

Haile won the golden league jackpot and broke records n the process running every two weeks against great competition.

All that is gone . The current athletes were very well rested and as a result, it wasn't a surprise that some of them broke records or came very close.

Just my thoughts.

World marathon majors wins carry a status the same or close to wc and Olympics track wins, so no, it’s not insulting to consider the comparison.

Wise Old Man wrote:

World marathon majors wins carry a status the same or close to wc and Olympics track wins, so no, it’s not insulting to consider the comparison.

It absolutely is when pretty much every single win your opponent had came directly at your expense. Kipchoge was present and in the race for most of the major track and XC wins Bekele had. In contrast Bekele was not in the majority of EK's victories in the WMM. Some of that has to do with appearance money and injury (to Bekele of course). You cannot be considered the overall GOAT when you were dominated in 2/3 of the distance surfaces. Not only that but if you look at OPs list in favor of EK he has a silver in 08 behind Bekele and then nothing of note until the 2014 Chicago marathon. Name another contender for GOAT with such a gap. There isn't one.

Not only that but Bekele doubled in almost every year he ran WXC winning double gold many times defeating guys in the short course that were far faster than EK and then destroying him in the long course while not fresh. And doubled in the Olympics which EK never did. Kipchoge has the marathon and will not be surpassed for a long time, but he will never surpass Bekele and he's not in the discussion. It does Haile a great disservice to even entertain this discussion as the first sub 2:04 man and WR holder 30+ times over. EK never got close to Hailes marathon PB without supershoes.

Bekele dominated every race in the 5000 and 10000. He performed similarly well in the few marathons he ran.

(2x Berlin, 2:01:41 in his latest marathon. Literally 2 seconds slower than Kipchoge's WR while 4 years older)

The gap is irrelevant (KB himself has an even bigger gap between 2009 WC and 2:01 in Berlin 2019), but you make good points (i) that on the surfaces they competed KB consistently beat EK (though I’m not sure dominated is the right word) and (ii) that we don’t know what a healthy KB could’ve done in the marathon and clearly his 2:01 was insane and demonstrative of amazing potential consistent w other distances (5k/10k/XC)…. But re the marathon, being healthy, having the motivation to train, and making an effort to go head to head (which frankly KB didn’t do much and when he did he got beat by EK) are all things a GOAT needs to do, and KB in any reasonable analysis has to be considered inferior to EK at the marathon. Is KB the best distance runner ever, yes. Is he close to the best ever in the marathon? No. (I could expand on why the 2:01:41, while unbelievably impressive, doesn’t hold a candle to EK’s marathon resume, but I’ll leave it there.)

Agree with pretty much everything you wrote. Bekele has a great marathon PB and he's done fine for himself in the marathon but he's no EK in that distance even though he's only 2 seconds off. EK got blown away by Bekele in nearly every major track and WXC race I've ever seen. It wasn't close. Going back and rewatching it after the dominance by EK in the marathon is almost jarring. He just wasn't on the same level while they were both in their prime. No one can tell me that defeating EL G and Bekele at 18 and then never winning another gold on the track isn't a major disappointment.

Also you majorly underplayed Bekele's win in Berlin it was only like 13 seconds off the WR pre super shoes and he got beat by a doper in Paris. Those were major races that he performed well in his gap was not as big as EK. Also left out GNR the most entertaining road race ever where he beat Mo and Haile although Haile was old.

Agree, it’s almost bizarre to watch old races where he gets dropped now that we’ve seen his marathon prowess

ShilohDoesntCare wrote:

Also you majorly underplayed Bekele's win in Berlin it was only like 13 seconds off the WR pre super shoes and he got beat by a doper in Paris. Those were major races that he performed well in his gap was not as big as EK. Also left out GNR the most entertaining road race ever where he beat Mo and Haile although Haile was old.

Great points - I completely overlooked those. I’d have to go plot what they were doing in their quieter periods to check if EK’s was actually longer. I think if you credit EK for running 7:27 (2011?) and a solid half in like 2014 it would be similar amounts of time but definitely could be wrong

Random question xyz wrote:

ShilohDoesntCare wrote:

Also you majorly underplayed Bekele's win in Berlin it was only like 13 seconds off the WR pre super shoes and he got beat by a doper in Paris. Those were major races that he performed well in his gap was not as big as EK. Also left out GNR the most entertaining road race ever where he beat Mo and Haile although Haile was old.

Great points - I completely overlooked those. I’d have to go plot what they were doing in their quieter periods to check if EK’s was actually longer. I think if you credit EK for running 7:27 (2011?) and a solid half in like 2014 it would be similar amounts of time but definitely could be wrong

Actually the 59:25 (pre super shoe so 1min off WR) was 2012

Random question xyz wrote:

ShilohDoesntCare wrote:

Agree with pretty much everything you wrote. Bekele has a great marathon PB and he's done fine for himself in the marathon but he's no EK in that distance even though he's only 2 seconds off. EK got blown away by Bekele in nearly every major track and WXC race I've ever seen. It wasn't close. Going back and rewatching it after the dominance by EK in the marathon is almost jarring. He just wasn't on the same level while they were both in their prime. No one can tell me that defeating EL G and Bekele at 18 and then never winning another gold on the track isn't a major disappointment.

Agree, it’s almost bizarre to watch old races where he gets dropped now that we’ve seen his marathon prowess

The thing is we will never know what Bekele could have done in the marathon if he had stayed healthy. After 2009 he battled injuries, weight gain and lack of motivation. The fact that an over-the-hill Bekele who was never close to 100% fitness could twice come within a few seconds of the WR tells us how good he really was.

Of course, staying fit and healthy is a component of greatness. But I think there will always the the question of how fast he could have run in his prime.

Last thing, as an aside. The point around EK never winning another global 5k title being somewhat of a disappointment again raises the question of whether Lagat should have been DQ’d for cutting in at the end of Osaka 2007. For anyone who thinks ‘yes’, then EK should be 2 x global 5k champ, which is incredibly difficult and obviously not all that common (*especially* given it was 1 very fast race and 1 very slow race... Not easy to be good at both and I’d argue peak Farah wouldn’t have been competitive in 2003 (he certainly wasn’t competitive in 07 but that was pre transformation))

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9niR19uf3g

callaway wrote:

The thing is we will never know what Bekele could have done in the marathon if he had stayed healthy. After 2009 he battled injuries, weight gain and lack of motivation. The fact that an over-the-hill Bekele who was never close to 100% fitness could twice come within a few seconds of the WR tells us how good he really was.

Of course, staying fit and healthy is a component of greatness. But I think there will always the the question of how fast he could have run in his prime.

Exactly right and as you point out those are components of greatness. He also did pop off a couple good ones after years of trying, so it doesn’t seem all that likely he had a 2:00:30 in him or something (his 2:03 flat is probably comparable to 2:01:41 w the shoes and 2 great performances around the same great result may suggest he was approaching his ceiling on those). But, yes, it’s true that it’s hard to say what could have been, and the flashes of brilliance were pretty amazing. Not enough though to even possibly consider him as good or better than EK at the marathon

bcun g wrote:

Dude, sorry, but KB will always be GOAT. Close second is Haile or Komen but certainly not Kipchoge.

What kipchoge has accomplished in the marathon is similar to what geb did to the 5 and 10 back in the 90s. I don’t think he has surpassed either of them, but he has for sure eclipsed komen, and is in the running with Bekele, Geb, and El G for best middle-long distance runner ever. Disagreeing with that is just hating.

Bekele was in his prime 2002-2009 and Kipchoge in his 2014-9. Maybe he’s not done, but probably he is. Kipchoge’s 5000 in 2003 and Bekele’s Berlin marathon in 2019 were outliers. Sure, it is more than fair to say what Bekele accomplished during his prime is more impressive than EK’s accomplishments during his, but this notion that KB beat EK while both were in their primes is flawed. Also, stop bean counting. You can’t wrack up as many major marathon wins as world cross and track wins, just not fair to use the win count as a marker of greatness. You can’t run more than two marathons/year.

Let’s also not forget 2007 in Mombasa. Sorry, but that race comes to mind as much as many of his wins, maybe more. That has always been a dark mark on his goat status. I always got the vibe that when the going got too tough for KB, he just dns, dnfs.