Official Conner MF Mantz Thread

Yeah I think the whole mantz is willing to hurt more thing is bologna. The commentators fed into that narrative because it sounds heroic. The reality is we can’t directly measure pain. Also outward appearances mean little. I’ve been passed many times by a heavy breather in a race. Are they suffering more because they’re freaking loud with their breathing? No it’s just how they sound and how they look.

Yes, good point. I also think some of it's down to how you train. You can kind of train yourself to look blank and not make weird faces when you're running. So you might look like you're fine. If you run track sessions all of the time with an anguished expression on your face you're going to reproduce that in a race.

PICTURE OF THE YEAR. Make this a damn poster -

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/conner-mantz-byu-leads-wesley-kiptoo-iowa-state-and-adriaan-news-photo/1231737767?adppopup=true

I don't intend this to be a blanket statement, but sometimes I see 'tough' used when 'poor strategist' 'lacking footspeed' 'ugly form' or even 'I'm surprised the white guy is hanging with that pack!' would be a far more apt description.

Is pushing a championship race early and then finishing last being tough? Is constantly surging being 'tough' or blowing yourself unnecessarily? Unfortunately, there's no 'toughness' meter, and we'll never know how much is toughness and how much is talent, but at least at the world stage I assume it's far more of the latter.

OC4 wrote:

The king of "Grandpas" is Eluid Kipsang of Alabama. I saw him run a 3:55 at Indoor nationals to finish 2nd behind Hocker and upon looking him up see he was born in Sept'96 making him a 24 year Freshman, LOL.

Kipsang: That is his advertised age as per the age that he registered with in Kenya but he may be even older than that. Just saying.

However, with regard to Mantz, BYU runners who go on a mission lose a lot of conditioning over two years and most of them increase their weight by 30 to 40 pounds. Disadvantage rather than advantage. Respect BYU elders, people. On top of that, most of them are great people.

tj wrote:

People should stop complaining about it, or - if they insist on being like dogs with bones about it - drop the double standard and go after the 30 year old Africans.

The Africans in the World Junior champs are cheats.

The BYU grandpas running against 18-yr-old kids are cheats.

No double standard here. Just two examples of cheating. The former is more egregious than the latter, I'll give ya that, but cheating is cheating nonetheless.

College, generally speaking, should be available for all adults, but sports need a cut-off age.

I was a decent NCAA athlete, but when I was 24 I was working full-time, getting married, buying a house, preparing to have kids. Would have felt like a complete jackass running races against 18-yr-old freshmen.

“Cheating” implies getting advantage over others and in the case of the BYU athletes going on missions for two years is hardly an advantage so technically they were not cheating even though from a moral standpoint it may seem wrong that they are two or three years older than some of the other athletes in the field.

It is a debate which has two sides which can never be “won” one way or the other unfortunately. It’s like the question “can agnostic and atheists be good people?“ Of course they can.... but some diehard Christians would disagree with that.

So all of you saying that BYU cheats, are you saying that going on a mission should make them ineligible? BYU runners are going to go on a mission regardless. So should members of their church just not be allowed to compete in any sports because their athletes take 2 years off of running to go to other countries and serve people? Are you saying you want this church school to encourage their athletes to go against their church?

I think people just don't like seeing the mormons be successful so they keep bringing up this stupid argument as if it should invalidate their success.

watdaheck wrote:

I think people just don't like seeing the mormons be successful so they keep bringing up this stupid argument as if it should invalidate their success.

We could look at it another way: LDS has a history of 'skirting' societal norms to further themselves and their cause (I'm putting it nicely) and as a result they've gained many critics. Sports is simply one more example of them exploiting loopholes to further their cause.

Tax free status--fundamentalist goal of 'milking the beast' (hogging any and all available state funds/tax breaks) --etc etc.

Not to mention founding principles that included, until just recently, the idea that black skin was literally evil incarnate...and then going and putting forward an all-white team every year.

I have no horse in this race. Rather, just pointing out that there are multiple sides to this issue outside of simply 'people are jealous!'

uhhhh we know that going out in 2:31 in a 10k hurts. The guy who wins that race hurt the most. Be willing to go out that hard and actually hang on means he's racing the entire race with massive discomfort.

I have no idea what it's like to be as fit as these guys, but I cant imagine a level of fitness where positive splitting that hard would feel good.

duuuude wrote:

Pretty sure you need to be a college graduate for Peace Corps, so no.

False. You have to be 18 and have a pulse.

Average redshirt senior is 23. I dont see a problem.

yawnnni wrote:

watdaheck wrote:

I think people just don't like seeing the mormons be successful so they keep bringing up this stupid argument as if it should invalidate their success.

We could look at it another way: LDS has a history of 'skirting' societal norms to further themselves and their cause (I'm putting it nicely) and as a result they've gained many critics. Sports is simply one more example of them exploiting loopholes to further their cause.

Tax free status--fundamentalist goal of 'milking the beast' (hogging any and all available state funds/tax breaks) --etc etc.

Not for profit organizations don't pay taxes in the US. Are you new to this? Or have you just be listening to the lies fed by the uber liberals that are ideologically opposed to the church? Listen, I don't like that my alma mater is charging $70K a year in tuition while the president makes over a million dollars a year. But it is legal. It's not about skirting any rules. It's working within the system. Countless organizations do this including education, religion and Healthcare.

The mormons' ideological opponents have hurled these tax evasion accusations at them for decades. Nothing has ever been revealed as evidence. Just innuendo and ideological opposition.

yawnnni wrote:

Tax free status--fundamentalist goal of 'milking the beast' (hogging any and all available state funds/tax breaks) --etc etc.

Total load of horse crap you are spewing without providing any evidence to back it up. I can however provide evidence to refute your claims. Just last year BYU turned down funds offered by the government because of COVID-19 (BYU reportedly turned down $54 million from the CARES act).

agreed, unfair double standard wrote:

yawnnni wrote:

Tax free status--fundamentalist goal of 'milking the beast' (hogging any and all available state funds/tax breaks) --etc etc.

Total load of horse crap you are spewing without providing any evidence to back it up. I can however provide evidence to refute your claims. Just last year BYU turned down funds offered by the government because of COVID-19 (BYU reportedly turned down $54 million from the CARES act).

yawnnni wrote:

I don't intend this to be a blanket statement, but sometimes I see 'tough' used when 'poor strategist' 'lacking footspeed' 'ugly form' or even 'I'm surprised the white guy is hanging with that pack!' would be a far more apt description.

Is pushing a championship race early and then finishing last being tough? Is constantly surging being 'tough' or blowing yourself unnecessarily? Unfortunately, there's no 'toughness' meter, and we'll never know how much is toughness and how much is talent, but at least at the world stage I assume it's far more of the latter.

pushing early and finishing last is not tough. no one thinks that except maybe that kid that does that.

pushing early, falling behind, and coming back to win is tough. no question. those are just facts.

Hello -- let me introduce you to causation versus correlation. You just named a handful of all-time greats, meaning you named guys who would never be competing at NCAAs to begin with. I think most would agree that you take to the 10k better in your mid to late 20s versus when you're 18-19 and lack some lifetime mileage/strength.

Not trying to take anything away from Mantz. He's 24 though, and comparing him to a young Bekele/Kipchoge isn't as good of an argument as you think it is.

Your argument simply means that the all-time greats are great at an early age. It means talent will sometimes win out when runners of different ages compete against one another depending on how good a runner is to begin with. It's another question entirely if 18 year olds at the NCAA level should be competing against 24 year olds. A lot of young, talented, runners self-select out of the NCAA system. It's not like a 24 year old Mantz is competing against the best 18-22 year old runners at NCAAs.