It was a lot of fun to start bogus threads about Daniel Komen's resurgence when his countryman
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Kipchirchir_Komen
had a good race. They usually got a lot of bites!
It was a lot of fun to start bogus threads about Daniel Komen's resurgence when his countryman
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Kipchirchir_Komen
had a good race. They usually got a lot of bites!
ex-runner wrote:
The irony is the only 'evidence' against Komen is the amazing performances he achieved. There is nothing else. Believing in 7:20 is simply a question of the capacity of your mind. Some might say 7:30 is the doped barrier, others 7:15.
It is sad when the sport has been reduced to such suspicion that we cannot celebrate amazing feats, they are simply seen as cheats. You have to be good, but not too good.
No, it's the fact that he performed those times at the height of the EPO era, then went on a rapid spectacular decline before he even should have reached his peak because 'he lost motivation'. The fact that there have been 100+ doping positives in his country and the numbers rise almost exponentially as testing there goes from minimal to half decent.
Seriously, what are the odds of Komen, El G, Bekele, Kipchoge all appearing at the same time, I'm the brief full throttle EPO era?
Arguably the four most 'absurd talents' in the 120+ year history of the sport?
Let's say the average great has a five year window to display his talent (and Komen had two). So that's 120 divided by 5 equals 24. You would expect the four greatest talents to be spread over those 24 periods. On the face of it, the odds of even two sharing the same five year window is 1 in 576 (24 x 24) The odds of all four in the same window is 24 x 24 x 24 x 24 = 331,776.
And the five year window they all appeared together in is in the very five year window that the first endurance drug became available, there was no testing for it, and it was widely available over the counter at a very cheap price in the countries these athletes came from?
So that's 331,776 x 24 = 7,962,624
Odds of around 8 million to one that the Komen, El G, Bekele, and Kipchoge were the four greatest absurd natural talents in history and all appearing in the brief no tests for EPO window was a coincidence.
You claim 'everybody dopes' but think it's 'tragic' that people suspect somebody from a doped up country in a doped up era who smashed a doped up record and then disappeared because he lost financial motivation of being a doper??
And when are you going to accept my Parkrun challenge? Grow a pair. Worthing or Hove next year. I'll register under my real name of Arthur Coevett and you can register under ex-runner. We don't even need to realize who each other is during the race. When you see my name above yours in the results, you'll be going home devastated and the laughing stock of Letsrun.
Whatever stack you're taking.
Moving backwards wrote:
How are you people still saying "have ran?" Is English not your first language?
*Why
THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:
The biggest argument also for Komen not doping is Woody Kincaid. Guys born at reasonable altitude, has an ok college career, Horst to Kenya for 7 weeks and joins Bowerman with decent but unspectacular results. Now, id that guy can run 12:58 who even knows. No offense to Woody...he makes it easier to believe someone could go 20 seconds faster.
I understand your point; but Woody grew up at >5000ft altitude. He also suffered entire seasons/years of injury. What you saw as a Portland Pilot was nowhere near his capabilities.
Bad Wigins wrote:
If he would have ran a sub 1:45 800 and a sub 60 half marathon then he'd be up there with range GOAT Augustine Choge.
He'll have to settle with being the untouchable legend of a fairly minor event, albeit a performance widely recognized as the best in distance track.
I believe Komen has the fastest combined 1500, 3000, and 5000 time. That would be fastest of everyone ever for that range. Doped or not.
What I really marvel at regarding Komen is he almost never ever strained, whether he won or not. I can't picture him ever tying up.
Happy belated birthday Daniel Komen!
Coevett wrote:
ex-runner wrote:
The irony is the only 'evidence' against Komen is the amazing performances he achieved. There is nothing else. Believing in 7:20 is simply a question of the capacity of your mind. Some might say 7:30 is the doped barrier, others 7:15.
It is sad when the sport has been reduced to such suspicion that we cannot celebrate amazing feats, they are simply seen as cheats. You have to be good, but not too good.
No, it's the fact that he performed those times at the height of the EPO era, then went on a rapid spectacular decline before he even should have reached his peak because 'he lost motivation'. The fact that there have been 100+ doping positives in his country and the numbers rise almost exponentially as testing there goes from minimal to half decent.
Seriously, what are the odds of Komen, El G, Bekele, Kipchoge all appearing at the same time, I'm the brief full throttle EPO era?
Arguably the four most 'absurd talents' in the 120+ year history of the sport?
Let's say the average great has a five year window to display his talent (and Komen had two). So that's 120 divided by 5 equals 24. You would expect the four greatest talents to be spread over those 24 periods. On the face of it, the odds of even two sharing the same five year window is 1 in 576 (24 x 24) The odds of all four in the same window is 24 x 24 x 24 x 24 = 331,776.
And the five year window they all appeared together in is in the very five year window that the first endurance drug became available, there was no testing for it, and it was widely available over the counter at a very cheap price in the countries these athletes came from?
So that's 331,776 x 24 = 7,962,624
Odds of around 8 million to one that the Komen, El G, Bekele, and Kipchoge were the four greatest absurd natural talents in history and all appearing in the brief no tests for EPO window was a coincidence.
You claim 'everybody dopes' but think it's 'tragic' that people suspect somebody from a doped up country in a doped up era who smashed a doped up record and then disappeared because he lost financial motivation of being a doper??
And when are you going to accept my Parkrun challenge? Grow a pair. Worthing or Hove next year. I'll register under my real name of Arthur Coevett and you can register under ex-runner. We don't even need to realize who each other is during the race. When you see my name above yours in the results, you'll be going home devastated and the laughing stock of Letsrun.
Whatever stack you're taking.
You are moving the goalpost once again.
To begin, Bekele and Kipchoge did not "appear" in the EPO era like you are claiming, they started their success in 2003
EPO tests have existed and been efficient since the 2000 Olympics. Both runners came well after that and both runners are still able to do greath things in the marathons, with the best times of the fields, even at 35-38 years old, when they are past their athletic prime.
So Bekele and Kipchoge did not appear at the same time than Komen and el Guerrouj and both have had a very long career after the EPO tests . El Guerrouj had a pretty long career too before accomplishing his dream of Olympic glory in 2004. Only Komen was a shooting star and disappeared quickly.
You prove nothing and lose yourself in contradictory arguments. Massive failure.
What you say about training hard and peaking early reminds me of Herb Elliot's career.
Moving backwards wrote:
How are you people still saying "have ran?" Is English not your first language?
The use of the infinitive in the past participle, i.e. "have run," is a holdover from old English, i.e. irregular. It is destined to be replaced by the preterite which normally is used as past participle, e.g. "has destroyed," "has humiliated," "has sent home devastated."
We here at LRC, experts at all things running, are also guiding the inevitable evolution of the usage of running terms.
ex-runner wrote:
BackBay74 wrote:
The sad thing about track and field history is that we do not know which athletes doped, and that we probably cast aspersion upon athletes who did not dope. Frankly, equally sad, is the fact that so many track fans claim certainty about who did or did not dope. The truth is that, with a few exceptions (Ben Johnson, for example), we do not and never will know the truth. Had the governing body showed an interest--a real interest--in policing this, we might have a history that was based more upon true achievement, but that did not happen. The sport was and still is run by callow politicians who are more concerned with their own reputations and a shallow notion of the sport's glory than they are about the pure athleticism that many of us love. And those of you claiming to "know" Danial Komen was a doper are grasping for a certainty that is not bona fide. I know you will push back on this. I don't care. I know you feel better rounding down. Fair enough--that's your deal. Personally, despite being saddened and angry about doping, I find false certainty to be equally disturbing. Our world is often filled with ambiguity. I think people should learn to live with it a bit more. Uncertainty exists.
The irony is the only 'evidence' against Komen is the amazing performances he achieved. There is nothing else. Believing in 7:20 is simply a question of the capacity of your mind. Some might say 7:30 is the doped barrier, others 7:15.
It is sad when the sport has been reduced to such suspicion that we cannot celebrate amazing feats, they are simply seen as cheats. You have to be good, but not too good.
C'mon ex-runner - do you really know anything about doping back in the "Wild West" of the full-throttle era? (i.e. pre-passport era).
Look at the top 10 all-time 3000m performers; two were banned for doping. Ali Saïdi-Sief holds the 3rd fastest ever @ 7:25.02 & Mohammed Mourit holds 7th fastest @ 7:26.62. So, you mean to tell me than a "clean" Komen would run almost 4 1/2 seconds faster than Saïdi-Sief and almost 6 seconds faster than Mourit? ?
http://www.alltime-athletics.com/m_3000ok.htmlook we all know Coevett is racist and in love with Ingebritsen...but that's no reason to pretend that Komen wasn't doped to the gills. I mean just look at what he did, it's literally laughable even compared to known dopers.
Everyone was on EPO from ~1992-2004....everyone. Komen, Geb, Paula, Bekele, Tergat, El Gerouj, Ngeny, everyone in Morocco and Spain, all the Russians, and I'm sure I'm forgetting a few important names and countries. It's obvious, we all know, just stop pretending.
That being said, the Ingebritsens are pretty suspect, I mean look at Norway in general, their Nordic skiiing is literally a textbook example of an amazingly successful state-sponsored doping program.
Coevett don't forget your KKK meeting later this week
There's nuance to all this. Kenya has had rudimentary doping and there's a huge pool of athletes. It is not the same as Morocco, which is strongly suspected to have sophisticated doping programs.
Coevett's argument is dumb and can be picked apart easily.
Here are your all-time greatest distance runners with their birthdays. Doesn't look weird to me.
Tergat (b 1969)
Geb (b 1973)
El G (b 1974)
Komen (b 1976)
Bekele (b 1982)
Farah (b 1983)
Kipchoge (b 1984)
Kamworor (b 1992)
Cheptegei (b 1996)
Kipruto (b 1999)
Barega (b 2000)
THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:
There's nuance to all this. Kenya has had rudimentary doping and there's a huge pool of athletes. It is not the same as Morocco, which is strongly suspected to have sophisticated doping programs.
Coevett's argument is dumb and can be picked apart easily.
Here are your all-time greatest distance runners with their birthdays. Doesn't look weird to me.
Tergat (b 1969)
Geb (b 1973)
El G (b 1974)
Komen (b 1976)
Bekele (b 1982)
Farah (b 1983)
Kipchoge (b 1984)
Kamworor (b 1992)
Cheptegei (b 1996)
Kipruto (b 1999)
Barega (b 2000)
Barega above the greats of the past who existed before EPO ( and who were white)???
Now that Epiopians are finally getting busted, I hope there are adult sites available for you out there to satisfy your fetish.
Abeneziel wrote:
Coevett wrote:
No, it's the fact that he performed those times at the height of the EPO era, then went on a rapid spectacular decline before he even should have reached his peak because 'he lost motivation'. The fact that there have been 100+ doping positives in his country and the numbers rise almost exponentially as testing there goes from minimal to half decent.
Seriously, what are the odds of Komen, El G, Bekele, Kipchoge all appearing at the same time, I'm the brief full throttle EPO era?
Arguably the four most 'absurd talents' in the 120+ year history of the sport?
Let's say the average great has a five year window to display his talent (and Komen had two). So that's 120 divided by 5 equals 24. You would expect the four greatest talents to be spread over those 24 periods. On the face of it, the odds of even two sharing the same five year window is 1 in 576 (24 x 24) The odds of all four in the same window is 24 x 24 x 24 x 24 = 331,776.
And the five year window they all appeared together in is in the very five year window that the first endurance drug became available, there was no testing for it, and it was widely available over the counter at a very cheap price in the countries these athletes came from?
So that's 331,776 x 24 = 7,962,624
Odds of around 8 million to one that the Komen, El G, Bekele, and Kipchoge were the four greatest absurd natural talents in history and all appearing in the brief no tests for EPO window was a coincidence.
You claim 'everybody dopes' but think it's 'tragic' that people suspect somebody from a doped up country in a doped up era who smashed a doped up record and then disappeared because he lost financial motivation of being a doper??
And when are you going to accept my Parkrun challenge? Grow a pair. Worthing or Hove next year. I'll register under my real name of Arthur Coevett and you can register under ex-runner. We don't even need to realize who each other is during the race. When you see my name above yours in the results, you'll be going home devastated and the laughing stock of Letsrun.
Whatever stack you're taking.
You are moving the goalpost once again.
To begin, Bekele and Kipchoge did not "appear" in the EPO era like you are claiming, they started their success in 2003
EPO tests have existed and been efficient since the 2000 Olympics. Both runners came well after that and both runners are still able to do greath things in the marathons, with the best times of the fields, even at 35-38 years old, when they are past their athletic prime.
So Bekele and Kipchoge did not appear at the same time than Komen and el Guerrouj and both have had a very long career after the EPO tests . El Guerrouj had a pretty long career too before accomplishing his dream of Olympic glory in 2004. Only Komen was a shooting star and disappeared quickly.
You prove nothing and lose yourself in contradictory arguments. Massive failure.
That's a straight up lie. EPO tests only became moderately effective around 2005, which is why El G retired that year. (Attempted a comeback in 2008 on the roads in a 10K and ran 35:XX, presumably without EPO).
There was still virtually no testing for the likes of Bekele. He could have been full throttle for a decade since his boyhood and the in-competition testing in 2005 would have been fairly easy to skirt around. He would have had no out of competition testing in Epiopia.
Coevett wrote:
Barega above the greats of the past who existed before EPO ( and who were white)???
Now that Epiopians are finally getting busted, I hope there are adult sites available for you out there to satisfy your fetish.
What greats are you talking about? Lasse Viren (rumors of blood doping)? Dave Moorcroft (basically Solinsky before Solinsky, always hurt/bad luck)? Dieter Baumann (drugs)?
Carlos Lopes sure if that's what you're getting at.
Barega ran a spectacular 12:43, backed it up with a silver, and is very young and promising.
Coevett wrote:
That's a straight up lie. EPO tests only became moderately effective around 2005, which is why El G retired that year. (Attempted a comeback in 2008 on the roads in a 10K and ran 35:XX, presumably without EPO).
There was still virtually no testing for the likes of Bekele. He could have been full throttle for a decade since his boyhood and the in-competition testing in 2005 would have been fairly easy to skirt around. He would have had no out of competition testing in Epiopia.
LOL Liar! :D
El Guerrouj never made a competitive comeback in 2008!
"El Guerrouj who retired from athletics after winning the 1500m and 5000m gold medals at the Athens Olympic Games in 2004 made a come back to the sport but as he was quoted “it was just for pleasure”.
Before the race, the 33-year-old Moroccan said that for once he wanted to be part of a mass race with no ambition to perform.
“I am here to participate in this race to celebrate the pleasure of running. I am here to share the same passion that unites me with the 4500 runners who will take part.”
“When I was a professional athlete, I was running for the performance, for the medals. Here, it’ll be different. I will be able to enjoy it, look at the public, and be with the crowd of runners. I miss these feelings because I’ve never experienced them.”"
https://www.worldathletics.org/news/news/el-guerrouj-just-for-the-love-of-the-sportwdfrw wrote:
Coevett wrote:
That's a straight up lie. EPO tests only became moderately effective around 2005, which is why El G retired that year. (Attempted a comeback in 2008 on the roads in a 10K and ran 35:XX, presumably without EPO).
There was still virtually no testing for the likes of Bekele. He could have been full throttle for a decade since his boyhood and the in-competition testing in 2005 would have been fairly easy to skirt around. He would have had no out of competition testing in Epiopia.
LOL Liar! :D
El Guerrouj never made a competitive comeback in 2008!
"El Guerrouj who retired from athletics after winning the 1500m and 5000m gold medals at the Athens Olympic Games in 2004 made a come back to the sport but as he was quoted “it was just for pleasure”.
Before the race, the 33-year-old Moroccan said that for once he wanted to be part of a mass race with no ambition to perform.
“I am here to participate in this race to celebrate the pleasure of running. I am here to share the same passion that unites me with the 4500 runners who will take part.”
“When I was a professional athlete, I was running for the performance, for the medals. Here, it’ll be different. I will be able to enjoy it, look at the public, and be with the crowd of runners. I miss these feelings because I’ve never experienced them.”"
https://www.worldathletics.org/news/news/el-guerrouj-just-for-the-love-of-the-sport
He is incapable of refraining from lying. His word has no value.
And you're an extremely dubious character who only appears to post here in order to falsely accuse me of lying.
Although he did not expect to be among the leaders, El Guerrouj briefly stayed with the leading group before dropping back and finishing eight minutes off winner Mokhtar Benhari.
“I ran like a beginner,” smiled El Guerrouj after the race. “They went out too fast and it took a while before I could find my rhythm. People were overtaking me and I could see they were pleased, surprised. I could hear some of them say ‘well, I can say I have beaten Hicham at least once!’”
“I am no longer a professional, I am just an amateur who enjoys running a couple of times a week but hasn’t run much these last few weeks. Today I really enjoyed being part of the crowd.”
El Guerrouj is expected to return in April to run either a 15 or a 20km road race before his marathon debut either in New York or Berlin.
For the record, El Guerrouj clocked 36:00 to finish in 136th position.
He attempted to stay with the leaders but without his magic sauce fell back 8 minutes behind (in a 10k). The race was intended as a warm up for a switch to the marathon the following year.
Obviously he gave up on that ambition when he found trailing behind with the 'mass participation' runners wasn't such a thrill after all!
These are your running Gods. You need a towel beside you watching El G run 3:26 when the fact is without EPO he couldn't have ran 3:36. Or Komen run 7:50 without the juice.
Coevett wrote:
And you're an extremely dubious character who only appears to post here in order to falsely accuse me of lying.
Although he did not expect to be among the leaders, El Guerrouj briefly stayed with the leading group before dropping back and finishing eight minutes off winner Mokhtar Benhari.
“I ran like a beginner,” smiled El Guerrouj after the race. “They went out too fast and it took a while before I could find my rhythm. People were overtaking me and I could see they were pleased, surprised. I could hear some of them say ‘well, I can say I have beaten Hicham at least once!’”
“I am no longer a professional, I am just an amateur who enjoys running a couple of times a week but hasn’t run much these last few weeks. Today I really enjoyed being part of the crowd.”
El Guerrouj is expected to return in April to run either a 15 or a 20km road race before his marathon debut either in New York or Berlin.
For the record, El Guerrouj clocked 36:00 to finish in 136th position.
He attempted to stay with the leaders but without his magic sauce fell back 8 minutes behind (in a 10k). The race was intended as a warm up for a switch to the marathon the following year.
Obviously he gave up on that ambition when he found trailing behind with the 'mass participation' runners wasn't such a thrill after all!
What is dubious about the importance of pointing out that you have zero credibility? You lied about him making a competitive comeback. It's in your own quotes.
“I am no longer a professional, I am just an amateur who enjoys running a couple of times a week but hasn’t run much these last few weeks. Today I really enjoyed being part of the crowd.”
Coevett wrote:
These are your running Gods. You need a towel beside you watching El G run 3:26 when the fact is without EPO he couldn't have ran 3:36. Or Komen run 7:50 without the juice.
You realize that your running Gods Steve Ovett, John Walker and Peter Elliott were coached/managed by Kim McDonald. The same Kim McDonald who managed/coached Daniel Komen and Noah Ngeny, as well as their mentor Moses Kiptanui. I wonder if maybe the guy just had a great eye for talent and got a heckuva lot out of his athletes wherever they were from.