A closer look at EPO-era performances

ALL CHEATERS wrote:

If I remeber correctly most of the Kenyans are busted for steroids not for EPO, correct?

On this board every distance runner thinks that steroids are only for bodybuilders, well, they doesn't have any idea about steroids, since the most beneficial reason for distance runners to use them is RECOVERY not bulking the muscles.

I've heard the same; recovery and also for injury rehab (there's studies that show no aerobic/endurance benefits from AAS). I think casual observer has brought this up before with some insight.

It's interesting from the doping cases data base how many distance runners have tested positive for androgens with several from Kenya alone. Here's a few notables from long distance & marathons:

Dieter Baumann/LD (Nandrolone)

Giuliano Battiocletti/Marathon (Nandrolone)

Julio Rey/Marathon (Mesterolone)

Mathew Kisorio/Marathon (undisclosed AAS)

Mostafa Errebbah/LD (Stanozolol)

Martti Vainio/LD (Testosterone)

Hassan Mourhit/LD (Anastrozol)

Ali Saïdi-Sief/LD (Nandrolone)

Kisorio has the *6th* fastest HM on record. Baumann has an impressive12:54 & Ali Saïdi-Sief has a very fast 12:50 to his name.

Therefore, the question is: Is it only steroids used here or were they used in conjunction with EPO for the synergistic effects? (i.e., EPO for aerobic capacity improvement & low-dose androgens for recovery/injuries). A popular combo of EPO and androgens or HGH was used by cyclists during the EPO-era. And both Operation's Galgo & Puerto used steroids & HGH in addition to O2-vector doping.

Note: Vainio's positive was pre-EPO time frame and he was also suspected of blood doping. Ali Saïdi-Sief said he took a tainted supplement presenting evidence of such and was banned on the athlete liability clause, and was nonetheless still stripped of his 2001 WC 5000 silver.

And yes...that's Mahammed Mourhit's brother "Hassan." ?

+1

Or check the newest case: Fifa, current 5000 m Euro champ, had both EPO and steroids.

The steroid cheats really picked it up in the 60s, with the runners maybe 10 years behind. Going back to the first page of this thread, even rekrunner realized how the women's pre-EPO times were roid aided. Of course he failed to conclude the same for the men, although they also ran quite ludicrous times + naturally had the same useless testing.

I did not ever say my thesis was genetic superiority, and in any case, I don't believe it is that simple. I did say regional factors, but, besides drugs and genetics, this can be altitude, enviroment, social factors, economic incentive, food, ... For example one simple factor, avoiding the topic of genetics, is body weight -- I'm sure a mature 100-110 pound American, if healthy, could destroy current national records. I consider doping a global factor -- anyone could have done it, especially in the '90s. That's what we saw in cycling. I've heard the Spanish doped themselves silly, and were able to set national records. I never saw your throwaway comment until you posted it about 10 pages in, and anyway I find it is pure nonsense. Having seen it four or five times, I don't agree with it, I've corrected you three times, and I don't see how any native English speaker could see any similarities.

Oops -- should have said "references to many scientific papers". Nice catch.

casual obsever wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

I recall the IAAF explained this quite well with many scientific papers

Love your sarcasm. More please!

Of course I failed to conclude the same for the men. Wasn't it even "Rocket Fuel Rick" who gave us three studies not finding any endurance benefit for distance events?

casual obsever wrote:

The steroid cheats really picked it up in the 60s, with the runners maybe 10 years behind. Going back to the first page of this thread, even rekrunner realized how the women's pre-EPO times were roid aided. Of course he failed to conclude the same for the men, although they also ran quite ludicrous times + naturally had the same useless testing.

rekrunner wrote:

I still find it odd that you think calling Africans dopers is not racist, but recognizing them athletically superior is.

Here's a video for you Gary. Leni Riefenstahl's famous propaganda video of the 1936 Olympics. It's crazy that some people regard this film, or Hitler's views on German athletic superiority, as racist. So I'm sure you'll enjoy watching it without any moral problems. Of course you wil have to imagine that all the blonde blue-eyed aryans are black skinned ultra-lean Kenyans in the style of Kiprop. But I'm sure you can do that. And imagine Hitler as some African tin pot dictator.

Now the difficult part is when you're watching Jesse Owen's winning four gold medals. You'll have to imagine him as a white European. Then you'll have to imagine yourself telling (black) Hitler that it wouldn't disprove the thesis that aryans (blacks) are superior, because Jesse Owens was American and had access to high tech doping methods. Tell Hitler that one day, all the athletes in the world will have the same opportunity to dope (and PEDs don't work anyway), and the master race will naturally rise to the top.

And remember - calling Germans of the 1930s Nazis is so damned racist and unfair. Not all Germans were nazis. But agreeing that they were the master race would be o.k. Let's call it Gary's law.

by: Weldon Johnson

April 7, 2003

Much ado has been made by the decision of the Flora London Marathon to use male pacemakers in this year’s marathon to help England’s Paula Radcliffe try and break her own world record. Since I escorted Paula for 25 miles of her world record run at the LaSalle Bank Chicago Marathon, I guess it’s time for me to share my story.

I had been to the LaSalle Bank Chicago Marathon on 3 other occasions (running 18 miles of it as a training run in preparation for my Marine Corps Marathon victory in 1998, running an Olympic qualifying marathon time (and my previous personal best) of 2:19:52 (3 weeks after suffering food poisoning at the world half-marathon championships) in 1999, and pacing the group that included American Rod Dehaven at a sub 5 minute a mile pace for 20 miles in 2001.). The Chicago Marathon is a first class event in a first class city so I’m always looking for a reason to go back. Each time I went, even back in 1998 when I barely belonged, the race organizers and volunteers treated me like I was a star.

And rabbiting, although a difficult job in some aspects, pays very well in the world of running. Outside of appearance fees (which I definitely don’t get) it is the only guaranteed payday in the sport (assuming you do your job correctly).

So a couple months before the marathon, I emailed Glenn Lattimer, who is in charge of the rabbits at Chicago, and asked him about serving as a rabbit. A few days later, I got a call from an excited Carey Pinkowski, the race director, about possibly using my services again in Chicago, but this time in the women’s race as an “escort” for the lead women (more on the difference between escorting and pacing in a minute). From talking to Carey, I could tell he was expecting something special in the women’s race in Chicago. Not only did he have Catherine Ndereba, the reigning world record holder who smashed the world record the year before in his race, but he also had Paula Radcliffe, the new superstar in track and field, who many expected to take women’s marathoning to another level after her stunning 2:18:55 debut marathon in London. We didn’t talk too much about the specifics, but I could tell Carey thought the world record would be smashed at his race.

Paula Radcliffe, with LetsRun.com 's Weldon Johnson, en route to marathon WR #1 of 2:17:18 in Chicago in 2002

Paula Radcliffe, with LetsRun.com ‘s Weldon Johnson, en route to marathon WR #1 of 2:17:18 in Chicago in 2002

I was excited Carey wanted me to be an escort in the women’s race, and I never had any qualms about doing it. There are some out there who feel rabbiting or escorting represents the end of one’s competitive career. Well, I had rabbited the men’s race the year before so I don’t fall in that category. And from what I heard, I guess some guys believe it’s a blow to the ego to escort a women’s race. I don’t see why at all. Sure men in general are faster than women, but what does that have to do with anything? The women marathoners now are running incredibly fast and I was excited to be able to do my part to help them run faster. My brother had escorted Catherine Ndereba for much of her race the year before, until she blew him away over the final miles, and had thoroughly enjoyed it. So, I had heard from him how incredible she was. I had met Paula Radcliffe in the spring last year and witnessed some of her training, when I was getting treatment from her physio Gerard Hartmann. Let’s just say I have never been more impressed with an athlete in my life. If she really was going to take women’s marathoning to a new level, I felt honored to be able to do my part.

So now I had to get ready for the event. In a way I was a bit relieved to be escorting the women’s race instead of pacing the men, because I had been injured for the entire year, and was a bit worried about my fitness. The year before I had done 20 miles at sub 5 minute pace, and figured that would be a stretch for me this year, although often the rabbits’s contracts are set up for going half way with bonuses for going farther. I figured that even if the women smashed the old world record and ran 5:15 pace (2:17:33) I could handle the pace since it was 15 seconds slower than the year before.

That’s not to say I took the responsibility lightly at all. My coach, John Kellogg, told me that I had to treat it like I was preparing for a marathon of my own. He stressed that I couldn’t just go out there and expect to run that long, that fast without specifically preparing for it. So, we scheduled into the training 3 longer harder runs at “race” pace for 13, 15, and 17 miles. These runs are never a lot of fun, and are the grunt work of the marathon, but I managed them reasonably well (although my pace on most of them was closer to 5:20 I believe (2:20 pace), but I was able to really drop the pace at the end of each run, so I figured I had a little something left over.)

The week before the race I had a bit of a scare. I had travelled to Dallas for a high school reunion (had a really bad workout that didn’t help my confidence at all), and then screwed up my IT band on the plane ride home. When I went running the first day back, my knee felt bruised. I didn’t think much of it, figuring I had hit it on something. Then, the next day when it hurt just as bad, I knew something was wrong. I immediately got some massage work on it, and started stretching my IT band more (which was puling on the knee causing the pain). The question now was whether to call the race and tell them of my problem. If I was racing myself, I for sure wouldn’t have called, but in this situation it was a bit different, as I could be jeopardizing someone’s chance for a world record and they could find a last second replacement. I decided to wait another day and see how it felt. It felt better the next day, and I was confident by race day and the taper I was going to do, I would be ready to go.

Heading into the race, there was a bit of uncertainty on my part as to what actual pace I would be running. But I think that will always be the case in Chicago with the men serving as “escorts” for the women, not as rabbits. The main difference is that as an escort, one is off to the side of the lead women, while as a rabbit you are right in front of them, trying to hit a designated pace. An escort no doubt helps the runner with the pace by helping set a rhythm, but is in more of a supplementary role as in some ways you are just reacting to the pace set by the women. As Glenn Lattimer had emailed me some preliminary instruction about 6 weeks before the marathon, “We want you to run at the side (off camera) more as an escort to set a rhythm, and to warn men runners that the convoy is coming through. We want to stress the ESCORT nature rather than the pacing. Don’t hand the lead women water or start running alongside, coaching and encouraging.” Glenn indicated he expected the race could be around maybe 2:17:30 (he was only 12 seconds off) or faster.

When I got to Chicago, I was still a bit apprehensive about exactly what pace I was to be running. I saw Gary Lough, Paula’s husband, and he too was wondering about the exact pace. But gradually, I began to really understand that as an escort my role was slightly different than the year before as a pacer, and I was more responding to the pace set by the women. Two runners from the Hanson’s Running Team, Brian Sell and Richie Brinker, were going to help out with the women’s escorting for 15 miles, and we had a pre-race meeting with Glenn. He reiterated that our role was to serve as escorts for the women, largely being off camera, trying to keep any male runners from getting in the way of the women. He told us, we were in a way in charge of the women’s race, and could decide during the race if we wanted to all stay with the women’s leader or if we wanted to drop someone back to run with say a 2nd women’s group off the back. One wrinkle was thrown into the plans as the forecast called for 20 mph headwinds the next day and obviously the goal was a new women’s world record. Glenn said that if the wind was really bad we could get in front of the women to help break the wind a bit, but the decision was ours.

On race day, all the professional runners go to the basement of an enclosed building about 200 meters from the start line to rest and base their warm ups out of. It’s an amazing collection of talent in one little room. My main concern was the weather. It didn’t seem as bad as everyone had predicted as it wasn’t too cold, but there definitely was a strong wind. The wind was out of the North and should be in our faces for the first 7 miles and the last 4. Before I knew it we were all on the starting line. Instead of hearing people cheering for Khalid Khannouchi, Paula Radcliffe or Catherine Ndereba, all I could hear were the 2 loudest voices in the crowd yelling, “LetsRun.com, yeah LetsRun.com”. I couldn’t help but laugh.

The race itself was a lot of fun once we got going. When pacing or escorting, I’m always a little bit worried about the how the pace will feel and how fast we’ll go the first mile. But the pace itself felt very relaxed and we did the first mile in 5:21 which is a bit over 2:20 pace, but the first mile is often the slowest in the marathon.

We soon started running quicker, and I was a bit surprised at how many men and women were around. Paula Radcliffe was in front of the women’s race the entire way, but Catherine Ndereba and Yoku Shibui of Japan were in the back of the pack that surrounded Paula. Often times at Chicago, there are very few runners running between 2:10 and 2:20, but this year there were at least 10-20 guys in the pack with Paula, Catherine and Yoku. No doubt some of them just wanted their brief moment in the spotlight, but with the strong wind the first few miles, I was relieved that there was a group of men racing around the women because they were helping break the wind.

I stayed largely off to the side and a bit behind Paula,for most of the first few miles and let Richie and Brian do most of the work up front which at this point consisted mainly of reminding the male runners to give the women room and not knock them down. We tried to be as polite as possible, but the biggest disaster for the race would be if one of the women was tripped. So on a lot of the turns, we’d get next to the women to try and give them a buffer and we’d verbally remind the men to give them room. I was a bit paranoid perhaps, but most of the men were just running their own races, doing their best to hang with the women (none of the men would make it the entire way). Only a couple of occasions did we put our arm on anyone (we found out afterward one guy was German so perhaps he didn’t understand what we were saying), and try and move them away.

As time went on, gradually more and more men fell from the pack, but both Catherine Ndereba and Yoko Shibui hung close to Radcliffe, well under world record pace. I’m not sure if Radcliffe ever knew they were there because not once the entire race did she ever look back, but both Catherine Ndereba and Yoku Shibui hung around at the back of the group of men in contact with Radcliffe. They never got in front of Radcliffe or even right next to here, but were within a few seconds for much of the first half of the race. Shibui was the first to fall back right before half-way, but Ndereba was only 4 seconds back of Radcliffe at halfway, with both on world-record pace (1:09:03 for Radcliffe).

Soon after half-way, Ndereba fell back a bit more and we had a little bit of a dilemma. We were running into a slight headwind, yet Ndereba was all by herself while Radcliffe still had us and a few other men as company. I talked to Richie and Brian and we decided it would be best and fairer for the race if one of us dropped back to run with Catherine. So, Richie dropped back to Catherine. At one point I would guess she was at least 10-15 seconds behind, but by mile 15 when Richie and Brian’s escorting duties were over for the day, she was right back on Paula’s heels. (I’d like to thank Richie and Brian for doing an excellent job in their escort duties)

From about mile 15 on, there were very few men with us, and after around mile 18 or 19 no one at all. At one point, I yelled at one of the remaining guys to give Paula a little more room since I didn’t see why he needed to be right next to her since there was no longer a big pack of people. I’m not sure he understood what I was trying to get him to do, so I kept trying to talk to him, until Paula blurted out, “he’s fine”. With that I never said another word to him.

Although we were already well under world record pace, Paula had been upping the tempo a bit since around the half-way mark (and we had largely a tailwind behind us from miles 6-22 although it was at our face at times), and slowly Catherine Ndereba began to drop behind starting on the 16th mile. Starting at mile 13, I had the next 3 miles in 15:30, then 5:13.9, 5:09.5, 5:10.5,5:09.5, 5:13.3 up to mile 20. Catherine was only 20 seconds back at 30k (18.6 miles) while the men’s winner of the race, Khalid Khannouchi was believe it or not 20 plus seconds back at mile 23.

However, the difference between the men’s and women’s race was that Paula Radcliffe was pouring it on during the final miles of the race. She never once looked to see where Ndereba was during the race. If the 2nd half of the marathon really begins at mile 20, then Paula was in great shape as she ran 5:09.8 and 5:11.6 for the 21st and 22nd miles.

I had originally only planned on going 20 miles with the leader, but I felt good at that point and wanted to make sure Paula got the world record, so I continued on with her. All along I knew we were on world record pace, and figured we were well under it now as the pace had quickened considerably since the half way point when we were on pace to break the record by almost a minute. I didn’t know exactly what pace we were on, but was definitely looking forward to a nice bonus (that I got if someone broke the record).

However, I had forgotten one thing, the wind. It had been mostly at our back since mile 7 and had picked up some throughout the day (but you can’t feel it when it’s behind your back and forget about it). At the start of the 23 mile we made a turn to head north for home, and the wind hit us straight in the face. The running got considerably tougher now, and I’m not sure what I was thinking except how difficult it was. I knew in the back of my head it would be perfectly legal under IAAF rules to get right in front of Paula and help her break the wind. But the race had stressed to us our roles as escorts, and plus at this point, I knew Catherine Ndereba was all by herself, so I didn’t feel it would be fair to break the wind for Paula (although I guess rabbits generally only break the wind for the leaders to begin with). As we approached the clock at mile 23, I guess I must have been perhaps just a teeny bit worried about the record now that we were running into this killer wind because I calculated in my head what time we would finish at. We were around 2:00:30 for 23 miles and I figured if Paula slowed with the wind and ran 5:20 a mile all the way in (we had been doing 5:10 or better recently), she’d still run around 2:17:30 and smash the record.

Paula asked me what the split for the 23rd mile and I looked at my watch and said, “5:23” thinking that was a perfectly reasonable amount to slow down running into a 15 or 20 mile an hour wind. I was caught by surprise by Paula’s reaction. “Whaaat”, she yelled, definitely upset. I guess slowing down is not in the cards when you’re Paula Radcliffe. She proceeded to put down her head and push the pace down faster, running 5:09 for the next mile with much of it into the same killer headwind. It was truly incredible (and painful if you ask me).

Little did I know, but on the 23rd mile when we slowed a bit, Paula was having some stomach problems (but I still contend the wind could have accounted for the 13 seconds we slowed). After the race she indicated she thought she might even have to stop and use the bathroom. Thankfully, she didn’t tell any of this to me (and probably didn’t say 10 words to anyone the entire race), as I’m not sure what I would have done if Paula has just stopped on the side of the road, dropped her shorts and used the bathroom, all while under world record pace. If I didn’t have a heart attack, I hope I would have had the decency to try and block the cameras from getting a good shot.

But now we were heading straight for the finish, and the world record was definitely going to be hers. Ever since mile 20, I had been wondering at what point I would quit escorting Paula. The end of the 25th mile is in an underground highway and right before we got there I decided that was it for me. I had never planned on going the entire way and knew the race wouldn’t want me near her the final half mile (although I felt a twinge of remorse when I soon realized the next half mile was the only “uphill” part of the course). I quickly told Paula that was it for me, and wished her luck, truly amazed with what she was doing. Once we hit the 25 mile marker, I started jogging with a big smile on my face. My job was done, Paula would smash the record, and I could enjoy the final mile.

And I definitely enjoyed it. The marathon is a lot more enjoyable when you can jog it home. Once I started jogging, I began to wonder how slow I’d run it. For I figured if I had gone this far, I might as well get under the Olympic Trials “A” qualifying time of 2:20:00, but I wasn’t going to pick it up from my jog. The only good thing is after you’ve run 25 miles at 5:15 pace, a “jog” apparently is around 6 minute pace. So I finished in 2:18:10 and got a marathon pr to boot.

As for my own “race”, or whatever you want to call it, it was definitely the highlight of my year for 2 reasons. First, 2002 had been very frustrating for me in terms of my own running and I thought my comeback from injury was progressing very slowly. But I was surprised with how good I felt during the marathon, and ended up even setting a pr. It confirmed to me that I can run a lot faster in the marathon. Plus, I had been wondering what I was training for in the fall season, and after Chicago I felt like my season was complete and ended up taking some time off.

And secondly Chicago was a highlight of my year, because I got to do my little part to help make history. Paula Radcliffe is simple an amazing athlete.

IT'S ALMOST LIKE SHE DOESN'T EVEN GET TIRED DURING THE MARATHON.

I don’t doubt for a second that she could have set the world record without any male escorts, that’s how good she is.

But nonetheless, after the race, her and her husband GARY must have thanked me a thousand times for doing what the race had paid me to do. That meant a lot to me. I had met Paula and Gary at Gerard Hartmann’s office in Ireland and had seen first hand what an amazing athlete Paula is, but also her complete dedication, (and I mean total dedication that I honestly believe no other athlete in the world has) to the sport. Plus, I had seen the team environment that surrounds her and how it is totally focussed on making Paula the best athlete she can be. And now that means being the best athlete in the history of the sport. It’s hard to believe but a year ago this week before Paula won the London marathon, she was regarded as a gallant loser by all of Britain. But those around her, never once doubted in her abilities, for they had seen her day to day dedication and talent. Gerard Hartmann’s office is really also an athletics museum of sorts. Its walls are covered with pictures and memorabilia from virtually every track and field star you can think of. However, when I was there, one athlete was conspicuously missing from the walls, Paula Radcliffe, the athlete Gerard works with more than anyone else. I asked when he’d put her up on the walls. “When she wins a Gold Medal” was his reply indicating that’s how good she was. If I was a small part of Paula’s team for a day, it means a lot to me.

And now I guess I have to say something about the “controversy” about this year’s Flora London Marathon having male pacemakers. For years, London protested that a women’s world record could be set with the aid of male pacemakers. When Naoko Takahashi set her world record in Berlin in 2001 she had a group of male pacemakers that encircled her for most of the run. When Tegla Laroupe broke the world record in Berlin before that, she too had a group of male pacemakers. No problem, said the IAAF, male pacemakers are allowed. So, now London which has a separate women’s starts, says fine, we’ll have male pacemakers too, and the IAAF objects saying they’re not allowed in a women’s only race. This is ridiculous, hypocritical, and unfair on the behalf of the IAAF. Either women’s marathoners should be allowed male pacemakers or they shouldn’t.

Now it looks like the IAAF will ok it, on a matter of semantics since London is calling its women’s elite race, a small “mixed race”, saying the pacemakers will finish the race. Yesterday, the IAAF gave it’s official ok to the male pacemakers, but saying it was sending a delegate to observe the race making “sure it is a proper mixed race”. As quoted in the Sunday Telegraph, the delegate will “be looking out to make sure that there is no theatrical pacing with four people running round one athlete – and we all know who – giving her drinks, shouting splits and then dropping out.“

Excuse me if I’m wrong, but I believe Naoko Takahashi had 4 pacemakers around her for her record run in Berlin. The IAAF needs to stop the grandstanding. This is not going to be a “proper mixed race” and everyone knows it. The men are there for one reason only, to pace the women. No one cares whether they finish or not, and to be honest I don’t think many people care whether the IAAF ratifies the world record or not.

If Paula Radcliffe runs 2:15 with the help of male pacemakers, why should we care whether or not there are 15 skinny men ahead of her or not (which is what would happen if London just had one male and female race). She’s still running 2:15. As long as the marathon itself is comfortable with having male pacemakers (it might make for bad television if they block the camera shots of Paula), I feel it is their decision to make.

And now that we’re talking about the time Paula can run, I guess I’m due for a prediction. Prior to Chicago, I heard rumors of Paula trying to run super fast there (looking back I can’t remember whether I thought 2:17:18 would be a suicidal pace or not. Probably so). I remember thinking, “This is the marathon. One has to start somewhat conservative so they don’t hit the wall. It’s not a good idea to try and smash the world record”. Now I think a little bit differently. If anyone can smash the world record of 2:17:18, it is only Paula Radcliffe herself. If it wasn’t windy in Chicago, she definitely would have run under 2:17. And from talking to her afterwards and seeing how she ran that 24th mile into the wind, I think she had a little something in reserve. In addition, she’ll have rabbits right in front of her instead of escorts off to the side which has to help some. Plus, I get the impression that Paula wants to do something special at London this year (I can’t believe I’m acting like 2:17 isn’t special). She skipped world cross country this year to solely focus on the marathon, and this is her only marathon prior to the Olympics. So she might throw all caution into the wind and really go for it in London. What that mean’s I’m not sure. I had seen talk of 2:15:00 pace, yet even I thought this might be a little fast, as her fastest half in Chicago was ‘only’ 1:08:15 (2:16:30 pace – although the last 4 miles of that were into the wind). Now, however, I see press indications saying the pace will be around 2:16:00. This sounds more reasonable to me, as in the back of my head I figured the weather could be a little better than Chicago (getting her under 2:17) and then Paula could find a way to knock another minute off her time. Maybe we’re all getting ahead of ourselves, as nearly exactly 5 years ago to the day of this year’s London Marathon, Tegla Laroupe ran 2:20:47 in Rotterdam for the new world record, and now we’re talking about Paula possibly running 5 minutes faster. Amazing.

I for one will be staying up late next Saturday night to listen to the BBC’s online radio broadcast of the race.

It definitely won’t be quite as good as being right off Paula’s left shoulder the entire way.

But I’m still excited about the race.

Thank you for reading my "Escorting Paula" story.

White and Rich at the Top wrote:

IT'S ALMOST LIKE SHE DOESN'T EVEN GET TIRED DURING THE MARATHON.

?

It is obvious that Paula Radcliffe is a Brit-Cheater-Liar-Fraud™.

Blah. Blah. Blah.

Paula is an absolute annoyance.

Let's take a closer look at a clean Brit from 1985.

It is obvious that the REAL DEAL = Mr. Steve Jones

Mr. Steve Jones went through the 13.1 mile mark at the 1985 Chicago marathon by himself with no pacers in 1:01:42.

He was still on 2:05:00 pace when he went through 20 miles in 1:35:22 by himself with no pacers.

His time of 2:07:13 is still the GBR record...and is still faster than Sir Mo Farah.

Steve Jones also ran 2:08:20 to win the 1988 NYC marathon.

His only goal as a runner was to race, to outrun the runners around him. “And not just beat them, but annihilate them,” he said recently. And often during his storied carrier, that’s exactly what he did.

Even when Jones crossed the finish line in Chicago in 1984, he had no idea he had broken de Castella’s 1981 world record of 2:08:18 by 13 seconds.

“Someone stuck a mic in my face and said, ‘Steve, do you realize you set the world record in only your second marathon?’ And off the top of my head, I said, ‘well, it’s only the first one I’ve finished,’” Jones said with a laugh.

Even when Jones crossed the finish line in Chicago in 1984, he had no idea he had broken de Castella’s 1981 world record of 2:08:18 by 13 seconds.

“Someone stuck a mic in my face and said, ‘Steve, do you realize you set the world record in only your second marathon?’ And off the top of my head, I said, ‘well, it’s only the first one I’ve finished,’” Jones said with a laugh.

I trained really hard and it paid off for me. I’ve always been physically very strong and done very physical work for a job. It paid off in the end. I didn’t need to go to the gym, I didn’t need to over-stretch. I didn’t need to cross-train or do yoga or anything like that. I ran without heart-rate monitors, without sports cords or yoga or chiropractors or physical therapists or massage therapists. For me, it was about getting up in the morning, running to work, running at lunchtime, go back to work and then run home from work. It’s that kind of mentality, but I knew every stride was helping me.

Sometimes I’d be out there at midnight, doing 4 x 5 minutes on a country lane and all I could see was a little dot of a light at the end of the road. I would be charging down that street in the pitch black, and in my head, Carlos Lopes, Mike McLeod and Brendan Foster were on my shoulder. I just drove myself, mentally, as much as physically.

There is no easy way. And that’s what all of these gadgets try to show you is some kind of easier way of training. But there isn’t one. I ran without heart-rate monitors, without sports cords or yoga or chiropractors or physical therapists or massage therapists.

I’m a purist at heart. To me, it’s about having your running shoes on your front doorstep and putting them on and going out and running hard. It’s not about measuring how far you’re running, it’s not about checking your heart rate or drinking the right drinks and eating the right foods. All it’s doing is teaching runners to run within their limits so there is no ability to run to their pain threshold or several other thresholds.

Distance running is all about stress and coping with stress. All these gadgets and gimmicks, they take the stress away from it. So when you’re in a race and you don’t have all that stuff on your arms or your pockets or your favorite drink, you don’t know how to cope.

And regarding what bothers him about running today ...

The industry is huge, and the industry is running the sport now, not the sport running the industry. I really believe, if you go back to my era, you had well-established marathons in the UK and you’d get 200 runners. But they were all runners who were running hard and running fast times. Now you’re lucky to get that many in a half marathon. The rest of the people just want to be part of the event. I think it’s great in many ways, but the competitive sport hasn’t grown. The pinnacle hasn’t gotten higher or sharper because of these events and you would have thought after all this time that it would have. But the focus has changed and now there are absurd headlines, and I have to say, you are just as guilty, publishing articles like ‘5 Weeks to a Faster 5K’ or ‘10 Weeks to a Marathon PR.’ It’s bullshit. It’s just selling magazines or it just caters to people who are running 4 hours for a marathon or 25 minutes for a 5K.

Strong stuff, but most provocative is what Competitor edited out of the above answer. “And that’s not running in my mind” was cut from end of the online version of this quote, but lives on in the print version.

Jones said via email of the omission, “Whatever changes from the original article were not made by me. The times I quoted are and were examples in general, as opposed to clear cut times.”

Brian Metzler of Competitor did not respond as to why, of all the potentially offensive, advertiser averse things Jones said, he decided to cut that sentence. It’s amazing, and commendable, that calling Competitor magazine’s stock-in-trade articles bullshit, and advertisers Gatorade and Garmin’s products unnecessary, somehow made it through the editing process.

Some say Jones was dumb to race the way he did.

His 1985 Chicago Marathon run reveals that there is no secret, no luck involved. Jones ran the first half minutes faster than anyone had before. He was so far into unknown territory that the announcers were unable to draw comparisons. He put it all on the line, and he paid the price, Running a big positive split, even missing the world record when he crossed the finish line in 2:07:13. Steve Jones attacked and he never gave in.

Typical Winter Training Week

Mon - Am - 10miles @ 5min milling

Pm - 12miles @ 5min milling

Tues - Am - 4x5mins Hard

Pm - 10miles

Wed - Am – Race

Thur - Am - 10x2min Hills

Pm - 10miles

Fri - Am - 8miles

Pm - 10miles

Sat - Am - Race or 16x1min

Sun - Am - 20miles @ 6min mile pace

In his five weeks leading up to his 2hrs 08mins 05secs World Best run in Chicago in October 1984, Steve Jones clocked up weekly mileages of 100, 84, 71, 71 and 100.

Saturday 6th

(am). 10miles including 16 x 1min (1min recovery) but can’t tell if I am moving fast because it is so hard.

(pm). 8miles nice and steady feeling better now. I hope it’s going to stay with me. Don’t feel so worn out but still can’t sleep very well.

Sunday 7th

(am). 16miles on my own. Went okay for 7000feet altitude so I can’t complain

Monday 8th

(am). 10miles with 8 x 3mins (with 90secs recovery). Good session but its still hard to tell if I’m running fast.

Tuesday 9th

(am). 14miles, legs felt tired and weary. Did a little swimming after then had a Jacuzzi.

(pm). 4miles before tea, not too bad.

Wednesday 10th

(am). 8miles gentle, still feel weary, hope it doesn’t last. I can’t understand it.

(pm). 6miles steady and don’t really feel too bad now.

Thursday 11th

(am). 10miles with 12 x 2min ( 1minute recovery). Good hard session, still not satisfied.

(pm). Just did 6miles, nice and gentle. Feel like I am working hard but not running very fast.

Friday 12th

(am). 10miles steady. Not too bad. Wet, windy and snowy.

Saturday 13th

15km road race in El Paso. 2nd to Carlos Lopes. 43mins 29secs. Went okay.

Sunday 14th

A good 18miles in 2hours 20mins, quite hard, not fast but most of it at 8000-9000 feet. Legs were feeling tired from yesterday’s race. Pulse at 4pm: 42

Monday 15th

(am). 10miles gentle pace, not too bad but cold and snowy.

(pm). 8miles steady, very very cold, in snowstorm. Pulse at 11pm: 60.

Tuesday 16th

(am). 10miles including 10 x 2minutes with 1minute recovery, not eyeballs out, just good strides, cold and snowy.

(pm). 5miles steady, felt bloody knackered. Pulse at 7pm: 62

Wednesday 17th

45minutes steady, not too bad but a bit stiff. Flew to Chicago.

Thursday 18th

Another 40minutes steady, very wet and windy. Not too bad but still a little stiff.

Friday 19th

40minutes again, legs sore, chest heavy, confidence seeping away (must have a race soon).

Saturday 20th

Did about 4miles or so, legs not sore today. Come on tomorrow. Getting nervous.

Sunday 21st

Chicago Marathon. World Best – 2hours 08 mins 05secs (... in his first completed marathon).

http://running.competitor.com/2014/10/news/steve-jones-ran-way-legendary-status_116322

Oh yeah.

rekrunner wrote:

I consider doping a global factor -- anyone could have done it, especially in the '90s. That's what we saw in cycling.

C'mon Gary...enough is enough! You're the ultimate spin master! In previous debates when the comparison of doping in running to that of cycling was made, you said you weren't interested because "cycling is not running." Now you throw the cycling equation into this? "Cycling isn't running" - remember you said it yourself.

I don't know what your agenda is but you've become so oblivious to the anecdotal evidence it's become laughable (and you've driven "m!ndweak" into a nervous breakdown. Lol). So, let me give you some anecdotals to chew on since you're obsessed with only top end speeds (btw, these have been brought up many times before in other threads):

Mourhit - 12:49 (EPO)

Ramzi - 3:29 (EPO)

Boulami - 4th fastest steeple (EPO)

Goumri - 12:50 (ABP sanction/hematological).

Now with these smokers who tested positive for roids, an argument could be made that EPO was involved given that these times were set in the EPO-era, history of runners combining AAS with EPO, doping cultures, etc. Nonetheless, it's a PED positive involving runners with the faster times you're obsessed with:

Kisorio - 26:54/12:57 (undisclosed AAS)

Ali Saïdi-Sief - 12:50/3:29 (Nandrolone)

Baumann -12:54 (Nandrolone)

Sepeng - 1:42.69/3:57 (Nandrolone)

Why EPO doesn't work?

There are no science evidence?

Of course, lets see what is going on in bodybuilding scene.

Terapeutic doses are lets say few mg, bodybuilders take at least 10 times of that, and they use COCTAILS so they exceeded recommended doses enormously, just take a look at Mr Olympia contender, steroids are not working, that is all hard work, of course, but without chemicals...

Now do anyone here believe that any scientist willing to explore effects of steroids would give to testing subjects anything more then terapeutic dose?

He would risk to go in jail if anything goes wrong, right?

So relate all this to "scientific" testing for effects of EPO!!!!

What we know is that a lot of cyclist died from EPO usage in early '90 and that many slept with heart rate monitors and with stationary bike in room in case alarm went off.

So EPO is not a benign thing to play with and what scientist would give to testing subjects enough EPO for hct to reach 60%. Do this and then you will see effect...

Of course that number of RBC have nothing to do with better performance, also blood doping also doesn't work, actually nothing works except black genetics at least in running!

Now when EPO can be detected how we just don't see not WR but PR week after week just like it was WR after WR during '90. We now that human being can peak 1 or twice a year, but during '90 peak was CONSTANT week after week, race after race.

rekkruner you nedd to see same good, or better to say excellent head mechanic

The presumption of genetic superiority or race as a historical or predictive factor is 100% yours. I didn't really go into any causes of the historical results. "Black" is a race. "East African" is not. I don't even know, are "North Africans" like Mourhit, and El G considered black? "West African", "South African", "Jamaican", etc., results were counted as "5 continents", which includes many black athletes. I would take no offense if any "5 continents" athlete, of any race, significantly improved on 1990s performances. In fact, if there were more examples than one woman, at least five in one event, out of the super-population of "5 continents", this would change my analysis completely. On the contrary, if any part of me is racist, I would cheer "mzungus" like Ryan Hall, against the East African competition. I think I would be cheering the underdog, with a sense of patriotism, but who knows ... But let's recap, you think I've carved out "fast times" by "race", and then turn around and carve out "doping" by "race", and then turn around again, and call me racist. I think the issue of racial perception is 100% yours. Go show this to a 5-year old and ask for his opinion.

Coevett wrote:

Here's a video ...

Tell It Like It Is wrote:

Boulami - 4th fastest steeple (EPO)

I thought that nobody has run faster than Boulami's 7 53 for the steeple. Rekrunner has proved in this thread that after EPO was introduced to track and field, the global and many regional distance running records got faster and therefore EPO does not work because the Spanish distance runners were in fact slow as they were not running sub 12 mins for 5000m or sub 2 hour marathons.

Therefore maybe EPO has a direct effect on the nervous system to improve jumping technique in the steeplechase despite the absence of any effect on endurance performance ....

nitpicker wrote:

Tell It Like It Is wrote:

Boulami - 4th fastest steeple (EPO)

I thought that nobody has run faster than Boulami's 7 53 for the steeple. Rekrunner has proved in this thread that after EPO was introduced to track and field, the global and many regional distance running records got faster and therefore EPO does not work because the Spanish distance runners were in fact slow as they were not running sub 12 mins for 5000m or sub 2 hour marathons.

Therefore maybe EPO has a direct effect on the nervous system to improve jumping technique in the steeplechase despite the absence of any effect on endurance performance ....

You're absolutely right - Boulami's WR time of 7:53.17 has never broken. He ran the time in 2002 glowing with EPO from a sample tested the day before, and the record was later wiped from the books. I erroneously posted his time from the year before (7:55.28), which is currently listed as 4th all-time fastest. But from Gary's standpoint, it's probably a coincidence that a Moroccan juiced up with EPO just happen to run a time that in 16 yrs hasn't been broken.

Why do people make up numbers about cycling wattages of the EPO doped cyclists?

That's what they do, they exaggerate the power outputs by 10% or more. But no-one wants to admit it. No-one even wants to address the issue. Who has their head in the sand? Those of you obsessed with drugs, that's who. And you people are a huge part of the doping problem.

Cycling is not running, when talking about physiological limitations to high performance. Here I was talking about the availability of drugs, and the effectiveness of testing -- in the 1990s, the decade that inspired anti-doping activists to band together and form WADA in attempt to standardize anti-doping. Ah, but you might say, cycling is not running -- even for anti-doping. I'm prepared to listen. Here's what I know so far: The UCI's role in undermining anti-doping efforts is well known, and was well documented in the "CIRC report". But for athletics, one of the suggestions is that, in the 1990s steroid and blood transfusion testing became so effective, that any large effect from EPO, was severely reduced by the inability to take steroids and blood transfusions that were so popular in the 1980s, like taking 3-steps forward, and 2-steps back. And this near 100% effective steroid testing was virtually world-wide, even in closed countries like Russia, and in China, for the Chinese (except for Chinese women in two Chinese meets), for a decade, while 0% effective for remote villages in East Africa, and in Morocco, who were able to combine steroids and EPO, without any limit. It's really a remarkable claim, presented on its face without any supporting arguments. Who was responsible for this near world-wide effective steroid testing, in the decade of the 1990s? Was it all of the national federations and all of the nations enforcing new national regulations? Both cycling and running had the same "national" legal and logistical constraints when it comes to accessing drugs. Was it the international federations? The IAAF? The IOC? The IAAF of the 1980s and 1990s was headed by the Italian Primo Nebiolo -- someone not well known for his tough stance on doping. Here's a little blurb on Wikipedia: "Nebiolo was also accused of having a lax attitude toward doping. While he oversaw the establishment of IAAF urine testing laboratories and spoke of the need to eject athletes who doped out of athletics, many questioned how high a priority anti-doping measures really were for him." I'm prepared to listen to any supporting arguments showing testing suddenly became so effective in the 1990s, for ALL non-African nations, while virtually ineffective in remote African villages and countries like Morocco. Regarding your many speedy anecdotes of "EPO works", this thread was about looking at the data and asking "why so few non-Africans, by so little?". What do you want me to do with your African examples, except to re-iterate that they are not "non-Africans", and their improvements from 1990 are " little". What shall I do with Baumann -- someone who was part of my analysis, and improved, relative to 1990s, by 0.9% -- something I called "so little", compared to the 1.5% of the top-5 North Africans and 2.6% top-5 East Africans. Even the mighty Baumann led me to the question "why so little?" Finally, one point I agree, 20 pages is enough to repeat pointing out basic Logic 101, why "proof by example", even many examples, and "proof by association", are not strong arguments.

pariah wrote:

Those of you obsessed with drugs, that's who. And you people are a huge part of the doping problem.

Huh? The people who are the huge part of the problem are the cheaters themselves and the organized doping programs:

pariah wrote:

Why do people make up numbers about cycling wattages of the EPO doped cyclists?

That's what they do, they exaggerate the power outputs by 10% or more. But no-one wants to admit it. No-one even wants to address the issue. Who has their head in the sand? Those of you obsessed with drugs, that's who. And you people are a huge part of the doping problem.

HaHa!..You've been identified as the infamous "Jon Orange" (Stroke volume thread). I knew there was something peculiar about your weird posts, and now I recall Jon Orange posting the same weird stuff...so it all makes sense now. You know you're not fooling anyone and not many take your posts seriously. ?

Really? "one of the suggestions", yes, from your 12-year old brother maybe.

As often, Tucker gathered useful data, for example summarized here:

Check out points 6 and 7. Or keep ranting about your own self-chosen data.

And then on you go, ranting about your own straw man.