Atlantic Region XC 2008

good post. but lets get back to the results. i can see this leading to the annual cortland/geneseo who is the better school bullsh!t.

Thank you, but I'll take my name back now.

After this past weekend I'm going to stop posting about people that have a chance to beat Kosgei. Bravo, Peter. NYU has earned my respect, as well.

1. Cortland - The only thing that will prevent Greenlaw from running well at the end of the season is if he loses a shoe... oh, wait.

2. Geneseo - I wish they were racing in Ohio this week, too. They're a good team.

3. SLU - I was just thinking about their schedule. They have a gimme at States. Could a weekend off before regionals help their top guys when it counts? Or, will they go for it on a potentially draining course at Hamilton?

4. NYU - Schneider = 2 points a regionals. Those times on the back hills at VCP are very good. Look for Matt Turlip to improve.

5. TCNJ - If they end up getting fifth they'll be less then twenty points out of third. The SLU/NYU/TCNJ battle will be a slug fest. Who wants it more?

6. Ithaca - Will they go after it at Hamilton seven days before regionals? As the clear favorite to take second will they jump all over an SLU B squad for the state title or will they hold back for and hope they can edge out a burnt out/ overrated contender on Nov 15th?

7. SUNY P - Showing me up with a a little life at Hamilton. Good for them!

8. Rochester - admittedly, I don't now much about their team. But, they run in a pack and generally peak pretty well. I still pick them to finish higher than 8th in a month.

9. Ferdonia - I forgot about them completely when I wrote my last post, my apologies Tom Williams and company.

10. RPI - I give them respect for running through Troy, New York. If they show up at regionals without any bullet holes they are already winners.

Geography major, great post. Those athletes are really students first. They earned their way into the schools. I'm not sure about Kosgei, and frankly is doesn't matter, but Mwenda and Kiplagat were not recruited. The Coaches that get these athletes don't even know anything about them until they've gotten in. It seems, for those guys, saying anything about running in their applications is just to show they are involved in a sport, just like the 23:00 5k runners who were on all of our high school cross teams.

NYU looks great. Those guys really must have been inspired by their team last year and it shows. Good for them. I'm just excited that the region is still so strong. A great race is sure to come in November.

Kosgei is good, but for him to run that fast Hamilton must have a flat and/or short course.

DeanLauer21,

You write about the how potentially draining the Hamilton course is. Perhaps you can tell Midwesta3 about the course. I know little about it, but after seeing Kosgei's time I want to know more about it.

that course well hell for me personally last year. worst race of my life. the whole course is rolling hills, with us running the longest and steepest hill twice. overall, the course is extremely challenging. my opinion at least

looking at results from this year and past results (and personal results)the mens race is about 40 seconds slower than your average 8k ...(I would consider courses like SLU and Geneseo close to your average 8k for example)

Well I guess we will see, one random Kenyan every great once in awhile is one thing. A random Peter Kosgei showing up at Hamilton to be the only good kid they've had in 10 years is one thing. SLU getting 2 guys out all of a sudden, right after Kosgie shows up, little more suspect, especially given the team implications, and if the 2 Kenyans put them into the NCAA meet where they haven't been in awhile on the mens side. I guess we can reserve judgement till we see if this "showing up" continues. For those who dont want to admit or acknowledge it, SLU basically has 2 guys on Full Scholarship, since my educated guess is neither Kenyan is paying one dime for school there. I know alot of schools dont package foreigners, and most dont meet full need.

SLU going the Kenyan route adds some luster to their chances. Unfortunate they dont think they can contend with good old fashion recruiting Northeast kids.

That is an ignorant comment. First let us look at SLU's 5th place regional team last year: Donohoe and Lloyd, southern New England; Howard, Ostler, Ludington, Northern Vermont. Beuadette and Fox southern/central New York. Looking at this year: Dan Ramsey, Northern Vermont; Mark Bunham, Eastern Mass; Goeff Millard, Canada, for crying out load, do they have to go more north? SLU can compete with recruits from the northeast. Period.

Second, SLU has always had a long standing partnership with Nairobi University. SLU students go there for an abroad program and SLU, in turn, admits many well deserving Kenyans regardless of athletic prowess. It just so happened that Stephen Kiplagat was also a fast runner along with being a bright kid. The coaches at SLU have never abused that exchange student program to bring in any outstanding runners. Check the results.

Lastly, it is unfair to write off Jeremy Mwenda as fast just because he is Kenyan. He is not from the Great Rift Valley Province of Kenya like Kiplagat and Kosgei or all of the great Kenyan Distance runners. Mwenda has not been aided by the assumed inherent genetics of a privileged few tribes or the ideal training found in that region. I was at the first cross country practice that Mwenda attended last year. That practice was the first time coach Newman had ever heard of him (yes, thats right, he wasn't even a recruit). Mwenda promptly quite following the next day's practice because he was way off the back in the work outs and easy run. He started indoor track last year running a 2:15 800. From that point on he worked his butt off to get faster. Mwenda is a naturally gifted athlete, that I concede, but his success so far this year has been a testament to his commitment and Coach Newman's guidance.

While I have the floor, I would also like to mention that I watched Peter Kosgei improve greatly from Liberty Leagues Indoor his freshman year (4:24ish mile) to what he has become now. He is a hard/smart trainer as well.

Back to the race results, enough time has been wasted on uneducated excuses squeezed from sour grapes.[/quote]

I would say that Hamilton's course is neither really slow or fast. My daughter ran for Hamilton, and her times on the course were consistent with her efforts at other schools. That being said, Kosgei's time is still very impressive, considering he must have been alone most of the way.

i would believe that because the women's course is said to be slightly shorter than a 5k.. so the hills make it run like a full 5k. it isn't the hardest course out there.. but it's a little slower.[quote]Porcupine wrote:

Unless they have changed the course in the last couple of years, the 8k distance is certainly accurate.

Hamilton is the kind of course that will run on par if it is dry and very slow if it is wet. Not too many flat sections, several long hills, and a good number of soft spots that can really slow you down if the course is too wet.

For those who dont want to admit or acknowledge it, SLU basically has 2 guys on Full Scholarship, since my educated guess is neither Kenyan is paying one dime for school there. I know alot of schools dont package foreigners, and most dont meet full need.

This has to be the most ignorant post on letsrun. If a school has a policy in place to meet 100% of demonstrated need (like Hamilton, Middlebury, or any other NESCAC School), they are making a commitment to cover the difference in cost between Total Cost of Attending the institution and Expected Family Contribution (as determined by the FAFSA or CSS profile). I can understand where you may want to point a finger and say "but wait, if a student comes from a poor family, they are basically receiving a full 'scholarship' to attend the institution."

The problem with that mindset is that this policy holds true for all applicants to these institutions, athlete or not. And the key is if a student-athlete at one of these institutions STOPS competing athletically, their financial aid package will remain the same! This certainly is not the case for kids at D1 institutions receiving athletic scholarships.

The bottom line is it seems that you are upset with schools giving generous financial aid packages to students. Aid packages in no way different than that given to the other non-athletes attending these institutions.

As Geography Major already wrote SLU has had a long standing relationship with Nairobi University. There are A LOT of kenyans at the school, most of whom don't pay anything, and don't do ANY sport. The reality is these people get accepted based on their grades. Coaches have NO control over who can even apply from these places. They don't know anything about the students until they get into the school. It's not even a possibility for athletes to be brought in as "full-scholarship athletes" in the way you're implying. These kids aren't here to run they are here to learn, just look at what they are studying. From what I've heard many good runners have been accepted to these schools and never gone out for a team, and never run a step.

fin aid wrote:

For those who dont want to admit or acknowledge it, SLU basically has 2 guys on Full Scholarship, since my educated guess is neither Kenyan is paying one dime for school there. I know alot of schools dont package foreigners, and most dont meet full need.

This has to be the most ignorant post on letsrun.

So, you new here?

Hamilton's course is two loops consisting of all grass (usually soft) footing. There are two big hills that are included in this loop so four climbs total. The first hill is a long straight away that runs parallel to a corn field. the second is a less steep but equally lengthly incline that u-turns around a putting green before it heads back down hill. The down hill pay off for that hill is pretty good. The course runs along a fairway to a lower point then when the uphill began, so racers can get some pretty good speed and make up for the hard work they did on that particular hill. The corn field hill, however, offers a decent of all ninety degree turns as it follows the edge of the corn field. There is also a sharp turn through a narrow tree line as the course exits the corn field, which always seems to be torn up and muddy. There is nothing worse than a course that forces you to stop and start. Those factors combined with an uphill finish account for the slow times. My assertion that the course is draining should be justified by now, too. I felt like I could never get into a rhythm during those races and constantly had to hammer down in order to feel like I was going fast.

Also, The last time States was at Hamilton the top three finishers were Joslyn, Donohoe, and Lowe and all three seemed to turn in slower than expected performances at Rochester's race track of a cross country course the following week.

[quote]DeanLauer21 wrote:

After this past weekend I'm going to stop posting about people that have a chance to beat Kosgei. Bravo, Peter. NYU has earned my respect, as well.

1. Cortland - The only thing that will prevent Greenlaw from running well at the end of the season is if he loses a shoe... oh, wait.

Im pretty sure that won't happen again

I meant that as a compliment. He still ran a great race with one shoe. He's tough as nails, he'll be high up there at regionals. He is much better than I am.

I just wanted to quickly add a bit of information about the two students from Kenya currently at SLU. I am an admissions counselor who used to work at SLU and also ran XC and T&F. In my time at SLU there was only one Kenyan by the name of Leti Lalilit, who was a decent runner, but certainly had the talent to be amazing. He concentrated on academics because he knew running wasn't going to get him money to survive back in Kenya. He knew an education would and now works in NYC as an Actuary.

St. Lawrence has had a program in Kenya since 1974 or so, the longest running abroad program in Kenya by a US University. Thus, in turn we are able to accept 2 Kenyan students into SLU that are able to receive scholarship money. It is highly competitive to be accepted as many of you know foreigners want to come to the US for a college education. Here's link from SLU's admission webpage:

http://www.stlawu.edu/admis/kenya.html

.

I would add that if a program has been in place for 30 years that they would have had more runners come from Kenya. Being a DIII athlete has shown to be much more about academics than athletics. Many Kenyan athletes are going DI, honestly how many All-America's have you seen come from another country over the years. Not very many as they come around once every so often. I'm sure SLU would enjoy more and more runners from Kenya to come aboard, but it all depends on who applies and who can afford their $50k price tag/year.

Good luck to all your teams this coming Regional/Championship season. And let's hope for 5 teams at Nationals this year. It's great that the discussion of the Atlantic Region continues as it's great as an alum of the region to come back and read what's happening when you've been out of the loop for a few years.

Jon Kent