Ingebrigtsen is one of the slowest over 800 but your point merely reinforces what I have been saying, that doping compensates for relative lack of speed by greatly increasing stamina. However we also see that those above with the quicker 800 times have a faster finish than Jakob.
A one second difference in PB means absolutely nothing in terms of 1500m performance. Kessler has a 1:43 PB, where was he in the final? Laros 1:44, Gourley 1:44, Cheruiyot 1:43, where did they finish?
When athletes are of similar ability the difference in speed can be decisive. The Olympic 1500 final showed that. Kerr has shown that several times.
I agree with that answer, but the question is the wrong one. Better questions are:
1) If Jakob can run 7:17 while clean, why can no doper run 7:19? They also have "better training, recovery, tehnology and wave lights and legal supplements (bicarbs)" than Komen did in the 90s.
2) If Jakob can run 7:17 while clean, could he run 7:07 while doped? The Sunday Times experts estimated a gain of 15 - 30 seconds for the 5000, from blood doping alone. Then return to question 1.
1) All athletes, including dopers can of course copy the training, recovery, tech, nutrients etc, but they can't dope like they did in the 90s, they'd get caught. Sure, you might micro dose, but that's it.
As I already said in my original post, I am sure someone with even better genetics using the same scientific approach as Jakob has done since pre-teens will come along soon enough.
Also: People act like Jakob is the only one that run fast these days, but time wise we are already in a golden era as far as the strength of the field is concerned in almost all running diciplines.
Let's not forget in the same race yesterday Aregawi ran 7:21, the world's 3rd fast time of all time.
I have no reason to believe he is doped. Do you?
Also, the records have been falling in the 5k and the amount of people running sub 3:30 have just exploded compared to previous eras.
2) Sounds fast, but I wouldn't rule it out, as the developments in training, shoes, reccovery, nutrition, wave lights etc would apply to dopers as well.
Hypothetical however, as they'd be glowing like a light bulb and get caught.
An athlete can be "glowing" and not be caught. Marion Jones et al showed that quarter of a century ago. Doping is way more developed today than it was then. It is the true cutting edge of sport.
In elite level the effect of EPO is much smaller than among hobbyists because the pros have very high blood cell count naturally.
For women the advantages of free for all doping is of course much bigger than for men due to their naturally low testosterone.
All are high responders to doping - even if it varies amongst athletes. That is why it is throughout sport. Look at Katir gaining 8 seconds in a year over the 1500 - or Georgia Bell's ludicrous 14 second improvement.
Of course you didn't understand what I was saying. You can go back to sleep now.
You have written that Ingebrigtsen isn't a better runner than Elliott and Snell have been. That's wrong, he has surpassed them by some margin. 800m speed isn't the only measure, Dumb.
Another gold in 2028 in the 10000m and a WR in the 5k, and Ingebrigtsen is the greatest distance runner in history.
Despite Gebrselassie, Bekele, Kipchoge or El Guerrouj. Snell and Elliott are not in contention here.
You have trouble following an argument. That his times are faster - but not over the 800 - is because of doping. He is a slower athlete with twice the level of endurance they had. That is what the sport now enables.
We need to stop talking about the 800 lol. Jakob has never focused on the 800 and could surely run slightly better if he did. He’s a mid-d/distance guy and doesn’t need to waste time proving what his max 800 is
He doesn't "prove" it because he is slow. That is the point about his 800 time. Slow but phenomenal endurance in a top md athlete equals doping.
Endurance can be increased greater than speed through doping. Without doping distance times would be little different today from the '70's and '80's.
Endurance is "easy" to develop through training. We have gained much more knowledge about how best to improve endurance through training than we had in the 70s and 80s. Ingebrigtsens would have been amateurs without a lactate meter. Now muscle sensors are also becoming more commonly used, and development will continue.
Humans are far from reaching the ceiling in terms of endurance, and will continue to improve throughout our lifetime.
If you thought 7:17 was impressive, wait till he gets the 5k and 10k ones sir!!!!!
Don't underestimate the power of supershoes, nanotechnology track surfaces and a sub-maximal endurance genius. Jakob is running 12:23 and 25:30 for the 5k and 10k respectively but there is a caveat!!!
He needs to run the 12:23 by this season, and the 10k one by next season. There will be no delays and if he delays he will not get it.
Timing is everything sir!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not at all. He will probably not even run a 10k next year. I doubt he has any interest in that event right now.
Also, he will run a great 5000m next year. Bank on it.
It will be hard sir, it was different for Komen he ran 7:20 in 1997 and then the WR for the 5000 in 97 and 98 but he was only 20, 21 and 22 years of age, you feeling me sir?????
Jakob is as good as 24 RIGHT NOW ALREADY!!!!! He will still be 24 all throughout the early part of next season and then as good as 25 nearer the end. He isn't running 5000m and 10000m WR at 24, 25, 26 years old sir!!!!!! He could be an outlier but I find it hard to believe he could be one as he isn't East African and his lifestyle isn't free of anthropogenic RF like Hagos Gebrhiwet and Aregawi. Well actually the lives of Hagos and Aregawi aren't really completely free of RF either, just much less than Jakob. Norway and America is more polluted than Ethiopia. Kenya is just as polluted as the former 2.
This post was edited 31 seconds after it was posted.
Are you still on that 800 m? It is 4 years since he ran it. I really hope he could run it so he can prove you wrong. He would easily run it much faster know. 4 years is a long time. He is better in every aspect now!
Well he didn’t seem to have a weak mind when he as a 17 years old won his first 1500m Euro champs, or his first OG 1500m (gold) despite being so nervous on the start line in the latter I ever have seen him. So don’t you think sometimes a bad tactics/ execution can be just that..?
And of course he as a strength guy doesn’t have the best raw speed. But maybe it isn’t all that bad for a 1500m+ guy -I watched his last 800m race from the tribune. -It was windy, and yes, he didn’t seem all that speedy. But neither did the two 1.44 flat guys that beat him with quite a small margin…
Oh come on sir, it was different when he was younger. He won during his early years because he had nothing to lose and no pressure really. What is Euros???? Euros is a lousy competition so let's talk only about OG and WC pls sir!!!!!! Jakob only started becoming weak in the mind because of the pressure after having won OG in 2021. If he was nervous before then he was far more nervous than ever after winning OG in 2021!!!
Are you still on that 800 m? It is 4 years since he ran it. I really hope he could run it so he can prove you wrong. He would easily run it much faster know. 4 years is a long time. He is better in every aspect now!
Nah come on, Jakob is an endurance stud, why would he be running 1:43 for the 800m like El G????? El G was a power-based athlete with great aerobic power, Jakob is an stamina-based athlete with great stamina you feeling me sir????? You can't run 1:43 with great stamina alone, you need raw power which El G has.
Jakob doesn't need a fast 800m at all to close a 5000m in 1:49!!!!
We have all tried to tell him that. The guy is living in the 80s and 90s. He dont think there is more knowledge and tech nowdays.
Talking to armstronglivs is like talking to a baby
Speak to Armstrong again, I'm sure he will tell you that more tech and supershoes today have been equalized by anthropogenic RF exposure which assaults high performance biology. That's why 'more tech' didn't and shouldn't per se result in improved performances, you feeling me sir???
Mankind has a way of negating his own advantage because they are real stupid, and its no different in high performance biology. You can have a guy who professes 'healthy lifestyle' and eats lots of leafy greens breakfast, lunch and dinner but behind closed doors he is smoking tobacco LOL!!!!!! That's the kind of stupidity and dumbness I'm referring to. You can have all the supershoes, wavelights, track surfaces in the world and still irradiate yourselves with TVs, computers, Wifis and mobile phones isn't it?????? What's the point right???
Look Mr PD, you should unsubscribe from my channel as I don't welcome lies and deceit alright??? I didn't misplace my faith in people rather than data, I place equally portions of faith in both okay????????
The only way to link your ideas to objective reality is with objective data, and the only way to also link your ideas to subjective reality is with subjective data. It's both Mr PD!!!!
Speak to Armstrong again, I'm sure he will tell you that more tech and supershoes today have been equalized by anthropogenic RF exposure which assaults high performance biology. That's why 'more tech' didn't and shouldn't per se result in improved performances, you feeling me sir???
Mankind has a way of negating his own advantage because they are real stupid, and its no different in high performance biology. You can have a guy who professes 'healthy lifestyle' and eats lots of leafy greens breakfast, lunch and dinner but behind closed doors he is smoking tobacco LOL!!!!!! That's the kind of stupidity and dumbness I'm referring to. You can have all the supershoes, wavelights, track surfaces in the world and still irradiate yourselves with TVs, computers, Wifis and mobile phones isn't it?????? What's the point right???
Are you still on that 800 m? It is 4 years since he ran it. I really hope he could run it so he can prove you wrong. He would easily run it much faster know. 4 years is a long time. He is better in every aspect now!
But not faster. That is his ceiling. He shows it when anyone is on his shoulder in the home straight.
Endurance can be increased greater than speed through doping. Without doping distance times would be little different today from the '70's and '80's.
Endurance is "easy" to develop through training. We have gained much more knowledge about how best to improve endurance through training than we had in the 70s and 80s. Ingebrigtsens would have been amateurs without a lactate meter. Now muscle sensors are also becoming more commonly used, and development will continue.
Humans are far from reaching the ceiling in terms of endurance, and will continue to improve throughout our lifetime.
Endurance is easily developed through training - yes. But it is even more easily and dramatically increased with peds. Drugs combined with training have transformed every sport by virtually eliminating fatigue as a factor in the outcome of competition.
Are you still on that 800 m? It is 4 years since he ran it. I really hope he could run it so he can prove you wrong. He would easily run it much faster know. 4 years is a long time. He is better in every aspect now!
Nah come on, Jakob is an endurance stud, why would he be running 1:43 for the 800m like El G????? El G was a power-based athlete with great aerobic power, Jakob is an stamina-based athlete with great stamina you feeling me sir????? You can't run 1:43 with great stamina alone, you need raw power which El G has.
Jakob doesn't need a fast 800m at all to close a 5000m in 1:49!!!!
Exactly. He is a workhorse to El G's thoroughbred.
Our downvotes are slightly different from yours Mr PD!!!! Our downvotes are due to us being expressly ADs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! People have an agenda for folks who preach about AD and that's because sin is in them. They wanna try to find a way to cheat, hide and gain unfair earnings and winnings.
Your downvotes are due to you being expressly being much too affected in your methods and explanations on doping. It becomes all too fake and unreal you feeling me?????? That's why you get downvoted because people think you don't wear your heart on your sleeve. You are in reality a PD disguising as an AD!!!!!!!!! But you don't need to do that, people want to see you in your raw form and want you to be brave enough to show it for what you are, a PD!!!!!!!!!!
Your explanation is nonsensical gobbledygook. I don't provide "explanations on doping" so much as ask posters like you and Armstronglivs to provide some objective facts, data, and evidence which can support your "explanations on doping". It is not "fake and unreal" for me to request you to attempt to meet this minimum intellectual standard.
I understand why my posts are unpopular, because I am sceptical and challenge widely accepted popular beliefs and ask for supporting data that no one can provide or has provided despite 4-5 decades of scientific research and anecdotes of elite performance.
But unlike me, despite you taking the popular side of the subject, you are still unpopular. It is what you say and the way you say it.
You believe you are "anti-doping" while I am not, but posters like you and Armstronglivs, who consistently and blindly spread the "power of doping" gospels without any objective supporting data, are essentially infomercials for the "power of doping". When athletes think like you, the result is temptation to dope while lacking objective data. When athletes think like me, they will look first for proven legal methods, like altitude training and superspikes and will hesitate to resort to banned substances and methods which may be a big risk with little reward.
Endurance is easily developed through training - yes. But it is even more easily and dramatically increased with peds. Drugs combined with training have transformed every sport by virtually eliminating fatigue as a factor in the outcome of competition.
In any case, you have to train for at least 10 years to become the best in the world. Using peds to get better will not be sustainable in the long run. There are reasons why Jakob is extremely careful about the intensity in training.
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