Before asking why, shouldn't we ask DO so many Kenyans take EPO? Most of the busts are for Nandrolone, Corticosteroids, or lesser known drugs like Terbatuline, and lately Triamcinolone Acetonide. Also whereabouts failures.
As to why, I answered that question for you back on page 11.
Two reasons can be "belief", or prescribed for treatment for anemia, for example from malaria.
Before asking why, shouldn't we ask DO so many Kenyans take EPO? Most of the busts are for Nandrolone, Corticosteroids, or lesser known drugs like Terbatuline, and lately Triamcinolone Acetonide. Also whereabouts failures.
As to why, I answered that question for you back on page 11.
Two reasons can be "belief", or prescribed for treatment for anemia, for example from malaria.
What so Kenyan runners believe that nadrolene improves their marathon times but that EPO doesn't? Isn't it more likely that EPO testing isn't as effective as testing for nandrolene?
Kenyans are prolific high level distance runners and the depth in Kenya is phenomenal with several thousand international level runners in Kenya training full time. Bigger pond, more fish, more catches, perfectly logical.
What I find disturbing is that the vast majority of clean runners (Kipchoge, Kamworor, Kandie, etc) are, by default, sometimes associated with the tiny fraction of mostly B and C level runners who crossed the line.
A reality check is needed. We disapprove of cheaters just as much as you, Coevett and other luminaries-mavericks, but at the same time we have concerns about the gross exaggeration re doping allegations.
A modicum of level headedness is much in order.
Thank you.
How many times do we need to keep pointing out to you the big names that have been busted, including world record holders, world champions, world junior champions? No matter how many times we do it, you doping apologists will just keep repeating this lie that it's only because Kenya has more runners. Besides, you have so many 'international runners' because you have so many dopers. Only a fool would think that all the 'bad apples' are being caught.
In 2022, 28 Kenyans ran between 26:54.76 (R.Yator) and 27:30.
95%of those Kenyans running low 27:00 were young Kenyan boys aged 18-23, based in Japan, where it is impossible to dope or do anything illegal. Yator 26:54, Kibet 26:55, Kiplagat 27:07, Sawe 27:09, B.Kiplagat 27:09, Masai 27:10, Rono 27:11, Ebenyo 27:11, Ruto 27:11, Kiptum 27:11, Ndiku 27:12, Sitonik 27:14, Mwangi 27:15, Kosimbei 27:15, Mburu 27:19, etc....long list. These are mostly young kids from Kenya, sons of humble Kalenjin farmers (majority) living and racing in Japan. They are all clean as whistles and legit. Impossible to dope in Japan. IMPOSSIBLE.
The point we're making is that the best athletes are clean as whistles and these manga Kenya boys in Japan are direct proof of that.
Before asking why, shouldn't we ask DO so many Kenyans take EPO? Most of the busts are for Nandrolone, Corticosteroids, or lesser known drugs like Terbatuline, and lately Triamcinolone Acetonide. Also whereabouts failures.
As to why, I answered that question for you back on page 11.
Two reasons can be "belief", or prescribed for treatment for anemia, for example from malaria.
All dopers, everywhere, have a "belief" that doping will help them. They are mostly right. That's why they do it. If they are wrong - as you suggest - then we might infer that Kenyans are dumber than everyone else, because they dope more than anyone else in the sport. Is that what you're saying? Kenyans are stupid?
How many times do we need to keep pointing out to you the big names that have been busted, including world record holders, world champions, world junior champions? No matter how many times we do it, you doping apologists will just keep repeating this lie that it's only because Kenya has more runners. Besides, you have so many 'international runners' because you have so many dopers. Only a fool would think that all the 'bad apples' are being caught.
In 2022, 28 Kenyans ran between 26:54.76 (R.Yator) and 27:30.
95%of those Kenyans running low 27:00 were young Kenyan boys aged 18-23, based in Japan, where it is impossible to dope or do anything illegal. Yator 26:54, Kibet 26:55, Kiplagat 27:07, Sawe 27:09, B.Kiplagat 27:09, Masai 27:10, Rono 27:11, Ebenyo 27:11, Ruto 27:11, Kiptum 27:11, Ndiku 27:12, Sitonik 27:14, Mwangi 27:15, Kosimbei 27:15, Mburu 27:19, etc....long list. These are mostly young kids from Kenya, sons of humble Kalenjin farmers (majority) living and racing in Japan. They are all clean as whistles and legit. Impossible to dope in Japan. IMPOSSIBLE.
The point we're making is that the best athletes are clean as whistles and these manga Kenya boys in Japan are direct proof of that.
The contortions you go through to deny Kenya's doping disease are incredible.
So, is it your conclusion that EPO had absolutely no impact on Lombard's improvement and it was 100% the result of him changing his coach, changing his training, reducing his volume in half, etc?
How about Kiptum? Is it your conclusion that doping had no effect on his HM WR performance at Valencia where on his ABP he recorded a 60% Hct & corresponding OFF-score of 145 - both values exceeding the 99.99% specificity level (less than 1 in 10,000 of being undoped).
How Daniel Wanjiru? (His hearing is now available for review) Would it be your conclusion that doping had no effect on his 3rd place place finish - running a time of 1:01:17, 1 & 2 seconds behind Bashir & Farah - at the 2019 London Big Half where on the eve of the race he recorded a near 60% Hct (19.4 Hgb) & a corresponding OFF-score of 132 - both values exceeding the 99.99% specificity level?
Wanjiru had two experts on his defense team. His main contention was that he descended from altitude in village in Kenya just a few days before the race therefore contending that it affected the Hgb values. One of the anti-doping experts for the IAAF was Dr. Lewis, who has expertise in hematological values of athletes that live & train at high altitude & descend to sea-level for races. She provided excellent expert testimony & really explains the science of this altitude issue.
I cannot draw any conclusions with so many unknowns. Lombard had too many other things to fix. Scientists usually come up with estimates like 40 seconds, or up to 1 minute, or up to 3% -- from small sample studies on even slower amateur runners than Lombard, where training effect wasn't controlled. Based on these differences and shortcomings, these scientific estimates are likely already inflated for these amateur runners, and I would expect any potential benefit to diminish for faster, highly trained, elite runners.
With respect to Kiptum and Wanjiru, taking EPO would be largely superfluous, as they already have gained a signficant aerobic advantage by living and training at altitude. The higher hematocrit might even hinder their performance by reducing blood flow.
Conclusions: Microdoses with intravenous rHuEPO provide a sufficient erythropoietic stimuli to augment tHb and enhance aerobic-dominated performance in both trained males and females.
I was not aware. It doesn't look relevant to the domain of elite running performance of highly trained athletes.
Scientists keep looking at the wrong things on the wrong people.
So, is it your conclusion that EPO had absolutely no impact on Lombard's improvement and it was 100% the result of him changing his coach, changing his training, reducing his volume in half, etc?
How about Kiptum? Is it your conclusion that doping had no effect on his HM WR performance at Valencia where on his ABP he recorded a 60% Hct & corresponding OFF-score of 145 - both values exceeding the 99.99% specificity level (less than 1 in 10,000 of being undoped).
How Daniel Wanjiru? (His hearing is now available for review) Would it be your conclusion that doping had no effect on his 3rd place place finish - running a time of 1:01:17, 1 & 2 seconds behind Bashir & Farah - at the 2019 London Big Half where on the eve of the race he recorded a near 60% Hct (19.4 Hgb) & a corresponding OFF-score of 132 - both values exceeding the 99.99% specificity level?
Wanjiru had two experts on his defense team. His main contention was that he descended from altitude in village in Kenya just a few days before the race therefore contending that it affected the Hgb values. One of the anti-doping experts for the IAAF was Dr. Lewis, who has expertise in hematological values of athletes that live & train at high altitude & descend to sea-level for races. She provided excellent expert testimony & really explains the science of this altitude issue.
I cannot draw any conclusions with so many unknowns. Lombard had too many other things to fix. Scientists usually come up with estimates like 40 seconds, or up to 1 minute, or up to 3% -- from small sample studies on even slower amateur runners than Lombard, where training effect wasn't controlled. Based on these differences and shortcomings, these scientific estimates are likely already inflated for these amateur runners, and I would expect any potential benefit to diminish for faster, highly trained, elite runners.
With respect to Kiptum and Wanjiru, taking EPO would be largely superfluous, as they already have gained a signficant aerobic advantage by living and training at altitude. The higher hematocrit might even hinder their performance by reducing blood flow.
So you've persuaded yourself once again with the Lombard example that even with a known doper his doping didn't help him and it especially doesn't help top runners - who nonetheless continue to dope against your best advice that they are wasting their time.
You said "Lombard, who improved 3 minutes from doping". You fail to persuade me with your gospels.
In 2022, 28 Kenyans ran between 26:54.76 (R.Yator) and 27:30.
95%of those Kenyans running low 27:00 were young Kenyan boys aged 18-23, based in Japan, where it is impossible to dope or do anything illegal. Yator 26:54, Kibet 26:55, Kiplagat 27:07, Sawe 27:09, B.Kiplagat 27:09, Masai 27:10, Rono 27:11, Ebenyo 27:11, Ruto 27:11, Kiptum 27:11, Ndiku 27:12, Sitonik 27:14, Mwangi 27:15, Kosimbei 27:15, Mburu 27:19, etc....long list. These are mostly young kids from Kenya, sons of humble Kalenjin farmers (majority) living and racing in Japan. They are all clean as whistles and legit. Impossible to dope in Japan. IMPOSSIBLE.
The point we're making is that the best athletes are clean as whistles and these manga Kenya boys in Japan are direct proof of that.
The contortions you go through to deny Kenya's doping disease are incredible.
Sir, these are not contortions but merely facts about young Kenyan boys running in Japan who are totally clean and running low 13 and 27. These achievements from whistle clean Kenyan boy athletes (18-23) in Japan speak for themselves and negate or disprove the theories you have about doping. We agree that doping exists but we believe that it is nowhere near the level that you purport it to be.
OK but then what happens to these "whistle clean" (you probably mean "clean as a whistle") boys once they start competing on the world scene? No risk at all that they will succomb to temptation/belief/whatever to get the edge to beat the other boys?
That's the thing with doping, even if it only improves performance by 0.5% that's enough to pass other similarly talented guys.
BTX, you still haven't told us whether the rotund Irish Brother took a dim view of Kipruto's excessive boozing or not?
So you've persuaded yourself once again with the Lombard example that even with a known doper his doping didn't help him and it especially doesn't help top runners - who nonetheless continue to dope against your best advice that they are wasting their time.
You said "Lombard, who improved 3 minutes from doping". You fail to persuade me with your gospels.
He improved 3 minutes over 10k after going on EPO. If he was able to train harder, that is what EPO enabled him to do. It's one of the significant benefits of peds.
How many times do we need to keep pointing out to you the big names that have been busted, including world record holders, world champions, world junior champions? No matter how many times we do it, you doping apologists will just keep repeating this lie that it's only because Kenya has more runners. Besides, you have so many 'international runners' because you have so many dopers. Only a fool would think that all the 'bad apples' are being caught.
Do you think that things become more persuasive by repetition?
The contortions you go through to deny Kenya's doping disease are incredible.
Sir, these are not contortions but merely facts about young Kenyan boys running in Japan who are totally clean and running low 13 and 27. These achievements from whistle clean Kenyan boy athletes (18-23) in Japan speak for themselves and negate or disprove the theories you have about doping. We agree that doping exists but we believe that it is nowhere near the level that you purport it to be.
When doping is a serious problem, as it is in Kenya, it occurs as a culture. It isn't a few aberrant individuals. There will not be two distinct sporting cultures in Kenya - one that thinks anything goes in order to succeed and the other that believes it is better to lose to dopers - and lose money - than reject antique colonial notions of sportsmanship. The former has become their sporting culture because the latter is now irrelevant in the professional game.
How many times do we need to keep pointing out to you the big names that have been busted, including world record holders, world champions, world junior champions? No matter how many times we do it, you doping apologists will just keep repeating this lie that it's only because Kenya has more runners. Besides, you have so many 'international runners' because you have so many dopers. Only a fool would think that all the 'bad apples' are being caught.
Do you think that things become more persuasive by repetition?
Quote: "BTX, you still haven't told us whether the rotund Irish Brother took a dim view of Kipruto's excessive boozing or not?" (end quote).
Sir, in Catholicism there is repentance and admission of guilt/sinning, and if Kipruto"confessed" to his sin, Brother Colm would support him without question. Catholicism is a very accommodating and humane religion (at least at surface level).
With respect to Kiptum and Wanjiru, taking EPO would be largely superfluous, as they already have gained a signficant aerobic advantage by living and training at altitude. The higher hematocrit might even hinder their performance by reducing blood flow.
Oh man, so you have been kidding here all the time. Can't wait to see Kipruto's numbers and then your subsequent jokes a la Epo slowed him down.
Before asking why, shouldn't we ask DO so many Kenyans take EPO? Most of the busts are for Nandrolone, Corticosteroids, or lesser known drugs like Terbatuline, and lately Triamcinolone Acetonide. Also whereabouts failures.
As to why, I answered that question for you back on page 11.
Two reasons can be "belief", or prescribed for treatment for anemia, for example from malaria.
What so Kenyan runners believe that nadrolene improves their marathon times but that EPO doesn't? Isn't it more likely that EPO testing isn't as effective as testing for nandrolene?
I don't think anyone believe nandrolone improves marathon times. As a drug, nandrolone has been available since the 1960s.
But the question to me was WHY so many Kenyans take EPO -- before asking WHY, we should first establish IF so many Kenyans take EPO.
Your suggestion of ineffective testing is simply confirming why the false premise is a false premise.
I recall the Sunday Times reporting on a large IAAF blood database from 800 athletes over a 12 year period. Kenyan and Ethiopian "blood doping suspicion" was less than the global average. In that same timeframe, Kenyans and Ethiopians continued to progress in the marathon, while the rest of the world stopped improving. The Sunday Times reported that the marathon was the "cleanest" event they looked at, with 8 in 9 Olympic and World medal winners never being suspicious.
Before asking why, shouldn't we ask DO so many Kenyans take EPO? Most of the busts are for Nandrolone, Corticosteroids, or lesser known drugs like Terbatuline, and lately Triamcinolone Acetonide. Also whereabouts failures.
As to why, I answered that question for you back on page 11.
Two reasons can be "belief", or prescribed for treatment for anemia, for example from malaria.
All dopers, everywhere, have a "belief" that doping will help them. They are mostly right. That's why they do it. If they are wrong - as you suggest - then we might infer that Kenyans are dumber than everyone else, because they dope more than anyone else in the sport. Is that what you're saying? Kenyans are stupid?
I agree with your first statement. The rest is you preaching your gospel to reinforce your own beliefs. As I just told Coevett, repetition does not make it more persuasive.
"Stupid" and "dumber" are your personal judgements based on limited and inconclusive and biased information.
Kenyans aren't the ones here trying to tell me that someone's "belief" in doping was right or that doping helped their performance. It is posters like you, "inferring" their experience and attempting to palm that off as "knowledge".
You said "Lombard, who improved 3 minutes from doping". You fail to persuade me with your gospels.
He improved 3 minutes over 10k after going on EPO. If he was able to train harder, that is what EPO enabled him to do. It's one of the significant benefits of peds.
This is part of the mythology. No one said Lombard trained "harder". His reduction of volume likely enabled fuller recovery.
And Lombard simply isn't that interesting in a discussion about today's elite running. His 27:33 would have been relevant in the 1960s or early 1970s.
It is the lack of better examples than Lombard during 28 years and during the EPO-era, among doping believing athletes worldwide that I find most telling.