Deano, part of being a great athlete is availability. "Of course" he didn't accomplish X, Y and Z is explanatory but doesn't add to Coe's greatness, it detracts from it. We were evaluating Coe vs. Kipketer, and Coe getting sick, injured, or feeling crushing pressure in Moscow, not running enough high-level 800s to prepare, these are merely excuses.
What did the two accomplish, how many important races did they run and win, records set and how did they perform with the chips down. That is greatness. Coe as a total middle distance runner is awesome, but at the 800 he is not on Kipketer's level.
Well said. Coe in my opinion is the 3rd best 1500 runner all-time behind El Guerrouj and Morceli, and the 4th best 800 runner all-time behind Rudisha, Snell and Kipketer = 3rd best MD runner behind El Guerrouj and Rudisha. That’s pretty, pretty, pretty good.
Which shows a real lack of common sense analysis. There are 2 championship events for middle distance - 800 & 1500 - and you put Coe as the only athlete in the top 4 for both events. Yet then you say he’s only the 3rd best ‘middle distance’ runner, putting an 800 specialist with no form over 1000m, let alone 1500, above him, as well as a 1500 runner who has no credentials at all over 800m. 5000m is long distance. You kind of contradict and confuse your own logic there.
In addition, Coe has a better Olympic record (2G, 2S) than Kipketer (1S, 1B) and EL G (1G, 1S) in middle distance events, and broke more world records than both of them put together.
So you putting him in top 4 in both events yet only 3rd overall of the 2 events is nonsensical. Rudisha was not a middle distance runner, he was an 800 runner. El G was not a middle distance runner, he was a 1500 specialist for most of his career before combining it with 5000 - not mid distance - towards end of career.
Well said. Coe in my opinion is the 3rd best 1500 runner all-time behind El Guerrouj and Morceli, and the 4th best 800 runner all-time behind Rudisha, Snell and Kipketer = 3rd best MD runner behind El Guerrouj and Rudisha. That’s pretty, pretty, pretty good.
Which shows a real lack of common sense analysis. There are 2 championship events for middle distance - 800 & 1500 - and you put Coe as the only athlete in the top 4 for both events. Yet then you say he’s only the 3rd best ‘middle distance’ runner, putting an 800 specialist with no form over 1000m, let alone 1500, above him, as well as a 1500 runner who has no credentials at all over 800m. 5000m is long distance. You kind of contradict and confuse your own logic there.
In addition, Coe has a better Olympic record (2G, 2S) than Kipketer (1S, 1B) and EL G (1G, 1S) in middle distance events, and broke more world records than both of them put together.
So you putting him in top 4 in both events yet only 3rd overall of the 2 events is nonsensical. Rudisha was not a middle distance runner, he was an 800 runner. El G was not a middle distance runner, he was a 1500 specialist for most of his career before combining it with 5000 - not mid distance - towards end of career.
Middle-distance running events are track races longer than sprints, up to 3000 metres. The standard middle distances are the 800 metres, 1500 metres and mile run, although the 3000 metres may also be classified as a middle-di...
Well said. Coe in my opinion is the 3rd best 1500 runner all-time behind El Guerrouj and Morceli, and the 4th best 800 runner all-time behind Rudisha, Snell and Kipketer = 3rd best MD runner behind El Guerrouj and Rudisha. That’s pretty, pretty, pretty good.
Which shows a real lack of common sense analysis. There are 2 championship events for middle distance - 800 & 1500 - and you put Coe as the only athlete in the top 4 for both events. Yet then you say he’s only the 3rd best ‘middle distance’ runner, putting an 800 specialist with no form over 1000m, let alone 1500, above him, as well as a 1500 runner who has no credentials at all over 800m. 5000m is long distance. You kind of contradict and confuse your own logic there.
In addition, Coe has a better Olympic record (2G, 2S) than Kipketer (1S, 1B) and EL G (1G, 1S) in middle distance events, and broke more world records than both of them put together.
So you putting him in top 4 in both events yet only 3rd overall of the 2 events is nonsensical. Rudisha was not a middle distance runner, he was an 800 runner. El G was not a middle distance runner, he was a 1500 specialist for most of his career before combining it with 5000 - not mid distance - towards end of career.
I am sure you are aware Wilson Kipketer had to sit out an Olympic in his prime due to switching countries. Coe had a good 1500m race in a boycott Olympics and Coe won another 1500m gold. Leave it that. Coe was not an great 800m racer.
Remember when this was a Jakob Ingebrigtsen thread and not three old guys lying about Seb Coe?
Pretty sure all the guys here who claim 'Jakob has peaked' are old guys. Besides, there are probably at least 100 threads on here discussing whether Jakob has peaked going back to when he was 13 or 14. What more can be said about whether Jakob has peaked or not?
Deano, part of being a great athlete is availability. "Of course" he didn't accomplish X, Y and Z is explanatory but doesn't add to Coe's greatness, it detracts from it. We were evaluating Coe vs. Kipketer, and Coe getting sick, injured, or feeling crushing pressure in Moscow, not running enough high-level 800s to prepare, these are merely excuses.
What did the two accomplish, how many important races did they run and win, records set and how did they perform with the chips down. That is greatness. Coe as a total middle distance runner is awesome, but at the 800 he is not on Kipketer's level.
Well said. Coe in my opinion is the 3rd best 1500 runner all-time behind El Guerrouj and Morceli, and the 4th best 800 runner all-time behind Rudisha, Snell and Kipketer = 3rd best MD runner behind El Guerrouj and Rudisha. That’s pretty, pretty, pretty good.
Best middle-distance runner can have two meanings. It can mean the best in the sense of an 800/1500m runner, like nearly all middle-distance runners used to be before EPO, or it can mean either an 800 or a 1500 runner.
Now it's one thing to claim that Coe was behind Rudisha (who was useless even at 1000m) in the latter sense. But you're actually using the former sense (when you 'move him up' to 3rd).
It's beyond ridiculous that you place a guy who couldn't even run the 1000m ahead of somebody who is only slightly behind his achievements at 800m, and who won two 1500m olympic golds, and is the only man to hold the 800,1000, 1500, mile WRs simultaneously.
If Coe had been a Kenyan with exactly the same accomplishments, you would have him as the greatest runner of all time.
Well said. Coe in my opinion is the 3rd best 1500 runner all-time behind El Guerrouj and Morceli, and the 4th best 800 runner all-time behind Rudisha, Snell and Kipketer = 3rd best MD runner behind El Guerrouj and Rudisha. That’s pretty, pretty, pretty good.
Which shows a real lack of common sense analysis. There are 2 championship events for middle distance - 800 & 1500 - and you put Coe as the only athlete in the top 4 for both events. Yet then you say he’s only the 3rd best ‘middle distance’ runner, putting an 800 specialist with no form over 1000m, let alone 1500, above him, as well as a 1500 runner who has no credentials at all over 800m. 5000m is long distance. You kind of contradict and confuse your own logic there.
In addition, Coe has a better Olympic record (2G, 2S) than Kipketer (1S, 1B) and EL G (1G, 1S) in middle distance events, and broke more world records than both of them put together.
So you putting him in top 4 in both events yet only 3rd overall of the 2 events is nonsensical. Rudisha was not a middle distance runner, he was an 800 runner. El G was not a middle distance runner, he was a 1500 specialist for most of his career before combining it with 5000 - not mid distance - towards end of career.
No, he doesn't contradict himself, Deano. You have to be strong, not anybody has Coe as Nr. 1. Life is hard sometimes.
Well said. Coe in my opinion is the 3rd best 1500 runner all-time behind El Guerrouj and Morceli, and the 4th best 800 runner all-time behind Rudisha, Snell and Kipketer = 3rd best MD runner behind El Guerrouj and Rudisha. That’s pretty, pretty, pretty good.
Best middle-distance runner can have two meanings. It can mean the best in the sense of an 800/1500m runner, like nearly all middle-distance runners used to be before EPO, or it can mean either an 800 or a 1500 runner.
Now it's one thing to claim that Coe was behind Rudisha (who was useless even at 1000m) in the latter sense. But you're actually using the former sense (when you 'move him up' to 3rd).
It's beyond ridiculous that you place a guy who couldn't even run the 1000m ahead of somebody who is only slightly behind his achievements at 800m, and who won two 1500m olympic golds, and is the only man to hold the 800,1000, 1500, mile WRs simultaneously.
If Coe had been a Kenyan with exactly the same accomplishments, you would have him as the greatest runner of all time.
that is pretty good (for a white Indian guy)
I see no evidence that JWH cares about the nationality or ethnicity of these runners. You on the other hand appear to be quite obsessed with it.
In the multiverse universe in which there is still no testing for EPO, here are the results of the 2022 World Championships men's 1500m final :
1. Katir 3:23.5
2. Elijah Manangoi 3:23.7
3. George Manangoi 3:24.5
4. Mario Garcia 3:24.7
5. Elhassane Moujahid 3:24.9
6. Asbel Kipsang 3:25.6
7. Teddese Lemi 3:26.0
8. Unkown Algerian 3:26.5
9. Centrowitz 3:26.8
10. Asbel Kiprop 3:28.9
(*note : Jakob won multiple gold medals in the xcountry ski at the winter olympics. Josh Kerr has represented Scotland at rugby over 50 times. Jake Wightman was eliminated in the heats. Stewert McSweyen is an Australian professional cricketer.
There are heated debates on LetsRun as to who is the greatest 1500m runner in history - El G or Manangoi (with a few claiming that Katir has already surpassed both with his Tokyo/Oregon golds and 3:22.0 WR).
March: two world indoor records- still 1 second ahead of next fastest 25 years later
June: Rome/Paris/Lausanne 1:43/44/42 in terrible weather conditions
July: Stockholm 1:41.73 in good weather condition
World Championships
August: bang bang bang
during the full season he was in the form to run very close to or under Coe's mark, in Zürich he clearly could have run sub 1:41
Yes, of course.
And Coe only had one attempt in 1981. He wasn't even planning to attack the WR, it was supposed to be a tuneup for a proper attempt at Oslo later. It was a rubbish track even by the standards of 1981. The 800m didn't start until 11 pm because of delays. Coe followed Konchellah who wasn't even a pacemaker (he finished 4th I think), and had to go round him.
Give Coe 6 or 7 tries in 1981 and he would have ran under 1:41.
Nothing but speculation.
I give him a tenth for passing Konchellah, 1:41.6. Maybe that was the best 800 shape he has ever had and the conditions just were perfect?
And Coe only had one attempt in 1981. He wasn't even planning to attack the WR, it was supposed to be a tuneup for a proper attempt at Oslo later. It was a rubbish track even by the standards of 1981. The 800m didn't start until 11 pm because of delays. Coe followed Konchellah who wasn't even a pacemaker (he finished 4th I think), and had to go round him.
Give Coe 6 or 7 tries in 1981 and he would have ran under 1:41.
Nothing but speculation.
I give him a tenth for passing Konchellah, 1:41.6. Maybe that was the best 800 shape he has ever had and the conditions just were perfect?
Just like it's speculation that Kipketer would have won in Atlanta.
Racing the 800m with no official pacemaker at 11 pm on a sh tty track is not perfect conditions. Kipketer was only running 1:42/3 when he didn't have perfect conditions.
Since this thread won´t die I take the opportunity to respond to the OPs initial post.
I think he brings forward many dubious claims not just about Jakob but also about training, peaking and more.
The OP claims the following:
1. Jakob will likely not improve his 1500m PB
2. Because he is turning 22
3. And because of his limited "turnover"?!
4. He will CONTINUE to be a sub 13 and sub 27 runner.
5. He will occasionally win global champs.
6. For a few more years.
7. Ceiling 12:40 and 26:25.
And in later posts on this thread:
8. Jakob is like a 25 years old.
9. He is a medal contender in 1500m - 10000m
10. He is about to peak bacause he has been training for a very long time.
--------------------
Ad 1. I predict Jakob will improve his 1500m times over the coming years provided he stays healthey and continues his efficient mainly aerobic traning.
I agree with others that he was already 3:27 last year and that he could have run sub 3:28 in Monaco this year with good pacing and weather.
WE can come back to this thread about 11 month from now. When the DL Monaco 1500m has been run.
Ad 2. Turning 22?!
I agree with other that it isn´t normal to peak at 22.
I have gathered some information about the age where various 1500m runners peaked:
Lewandowski 34
Mo Farah 30
Mechaal 30
Mo Ahmed 29
Grethen 29
Sam Parsons 28
Elliot Giles 28
Wightman 28
Neil Gourley 27
Rozmys 27
McSweyn 26
Timothy 25
Grant Fisher 25
Hoare 25
Kipsang 24
Mario Garcia 23
Nuguse 23
Heyward 23
Fontes 23
Ramsden 23
Many of these runners PBed this year and many (especially the younger segment) will possibly be quite disappointed if they are not improving further
Naaaaade continues his trolling about Jakob´s early peaking so I copy here a short essay adressing why he is wrong:
"Ad 10. Jakob is about to peak because he has been training for a very long time.
That seems to be the opinion of most posters on these boards, including Naaaaade and Lollys Master (YOU CAN´T CHEAT THE BODY, IT ONLY HAS A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF YEARS (10-15)/ MILES IN IT; JAKOB WILL NOT BE RUNNING INTO HIS THIRTIES) in this thread.
But is this theory/ hypothesis true? I don´t think so. Lollys master claims he is especially qualified to judge such matters due to his personal career and knowledge about training.
I would say that he is disqualifying himself by stating that it is a FACT that an athlete only can sustain 10-15 years of serious/hard/ professional training. This statement is clearly a THEORY and a such kind of theory can never be a FACT. Lollys master could try to support his theory with facts regarding athletes who peaked/ burned out after 10-15 years of training but even if he did the theory wouldn´t be a FACT but just a better documented theory.
Lollys Master or other like-minded people have, however, to my knowledge never produced any convincing evidence to support their theory.
The theory seems more to be a pseudo-scientific misconception assuming that a human body – like a machine - is broken down after “working” over a certain amount of time or “driving” a certain amount of miles.
But the human body isn´t like that. The human body renew itself every day. And at least until the human being is in his/ her twenties the body will – everything equal – be stronger and stronger. No machine can do that!
And the human body gets stronger by right training which breaks down muscles fibres and then after allowing for recovery built them up again to a higher level (super compensation). Recovery could be rest but for elite runners – as the Ingebrigtsen – it is long recovery runs at an easy pace.
Also: Regular (especially aerobic) training increases the oxygen turnover by creating many new blood vessels in the muscles. The sooner you work on this process the better.
In my opinion it is rather the other way around: It is difficult to be an elite athlete if you haven´t trained a lot in your childhood and teens. Some people talk about the 10,000 hours rule: 10,000 training hours before leaving the teens.
I don´t know if it can be set on a formula but I am quite certain it is a big advantage if the above physical benefits from right, balanced training start as early as possible. Most children love physical activities and it would be stupid to put restrictions on this due to some dubious theories.
Some people here have stated that Jakob has been doing HARD training for many years but this isn´t true. He has been training seriously from a very young age and been running a high mileage relative to his age (the mileage has gradually been increased over the years) but his training has never been hard. He said himself years ago that he had trained a lot but the training wasn´t hard. FACTS support this:
For a big part of the year the Ingebrigtsens train almost exclusively aerobically. Aerobic reps at lactate number 3.1-3.2 which is well under the threshold to anaerobic exercise. AND long recovery runs at an easy pace. As pointed out before by some posters (including myself) here and in other threads: This kind of training doesn´t wear you down.
On the contrary this mainly aerobic, well balanced training deliver you into adulthood in your best possible version."
------------------
So I maintain that Jakob as most other runners will continue to improve in both the 1500m and the longer distances until at least his mid twenties barring illness and injury.
I challenge Naaaaade, Lollys Master and more to support their theory with examples from real life.
I don´t need to disprove their theory. I will, however, as soon as possible give some examples about famous runners who haven´t "obeyed" Naaaaade´s and Lollys Masters´ theory.
Naaaade, Lollys Master and other likeminded don´t seem to want to defend their theory about the runner only having a limited number of years to train before he peaks.
Lolly Master on page 3 in this thread: “Jakob has been training like a pro since much younger than any other elite 1500m runner. You can't cheat the body, it only has certain amount of years / miles in it, so everyone, who thinks that Jakob is gonna race into his thirties are in for a surprise.”
And also on page 3: “Jakob has been training at professional intensity for ca. 15 years now, as he has stated himself. Very likely he is peaking right now, as it takes 10-15 years for elites to peak.”
But as stated before in other threads some of the all time greats HAVE CHEATED their bodies having impressive careers over 20 or even 30 years extending their careers into their thirties and some into the fourties:
HAILE GEBRSELASSIE. Famously started to run 20 km daily (to school and back) when he was a little kid. Probably from the age of about 6-7. Haile went on to break in total 27 WRs; the last of his track records when he was 25-26, that is after almost 20 years of training. He continued to break WRs on the road, including in the HM and the Marathon. The last WR in Marathon was set at age 35, that is after almost 30 years of serious training.
He finished his career in 2015 at age 42 but I read recently that he was going to have a come back? -----------------
KENENIESA BEKELE: Started reportedly to run in middle school (14-15?). before that he played soccer. He set PBs on the 5000m and 10000m early at 21 and 23 but also PBs in the 1500m and the 3000m at age 25. And finally he improved his MARATHON best (just outside the former WR) at age 37 about 22 years after starting training. And I suppose that he still wants to improve his PB at age 40. -------------------
MO FARAH: Started his running career at 11 soon being a good youth cross country runner. He, however,first peaked at the track in the 5000m and the 10000m at age 28 after 17 years of training. He went on to set new PBs on the 1500m and the 3000m at 30 and 33 respectively. And new PB on the marathon at 35 after 24 years of training. Suppose he still wants to improve his M time at age 39!? -----------------
ELIUD KIPCHOGE: Started -as Gebrselassie – by running to and from school. He later stated that he never imagined that this early conditioning was a perfect foundation for a successfull running career. Eliud set PBs in the 5000m and the 10000m at 19! and 22. And in the 3000m at 26 after possibly about almost 20 years of training. He went on to be the best marathon runner of all time setting the former WR at age 33. And improved it today at the age of 37 after about 30 years of training. And many sources claim he is some years older which just makes his career even more impressive (and his apparent early peak in the 5000m and 10000m more understandable). --------------
MARCIN LEWANDOWSKI He reportedly started training seriously at around age 14-15. He set PB in the 800m at 28 but ran almost as fast at 22 and at 32 so he was in his prime in the 800m for 10 years. Lewandowski further improved in the 1500m into his thirties peaking at 34 after almost 20 years of training.
I give him a tenth for passing Konchellah, 1:41.6. Maybe that was the best 800 shape he has ever had and the conditions just were perfect?
Just like it's speculation that Kipketer would have won in Atlanta.
Racing the 800m with no official pacemaker at 11 pm on a sh tty track is not perfect conditions. Kipketer was only running 1:42/3 when he didn't have perfect conditions.
Have you run on the track, Coevett? And took his mom care he goes to bed early every night? What was bad on the pace for the first 450m?
So Coe was much better over 800m than Kipketer, correct Coevett?
Which shows a real lack of common sense analysis. There are 2 championship events for middle distance - 800 & 1500 - and you put Coe as the only athlete in the top 4 for both events. Yet then you say he’s only the 3rd best ‘middle distance’ runner, putting an 800 specialist with no form over 1000m, let alone 1500, above him, as well as a 1500 runner who has no credentials at all over 800m. 5000m is long distance. You kind of contradict and confuse your own logic there.
In addition, Coe has a better Olympic record (2G, 2S) than Kipketer (1S, 1B) and EL G (1G, 1S) in middle distance events, and broke more world records than both of them put together.
So you putting him in top 4 in both events yet only 3rd overall of the 2 events is nonsensical. Rudisha was not a middle distance runner, he was an 800 runner. El G was not a middle distance runner, he was a 1500 specialist for most of his career before combining it with 5000 - not mid distance - towards end of career.
denoting or relating to a race distance of between 800 and 5,000 metres. "middle-distance runners"
Olympic medals are not the critria:
Number of Great Athletics event won:
El G. 4 world championships, 1 Gold Olymp, 1 Silver
3 Indoor World championships 3 successive World Athletics athlete of the year
4 IAAF Golden League (1998/1999/2000/2001)
Second all times best in the 3000m:
7:23:03
It was in 1999 not the end of his carrer
Consistency
Consistency
Consistency
the number of times you can replicate a performance
the number of times you can replicate a performance
the number of times you can replicate a performance
No boycotted Olympic Games
No, Organon is correct.
"middle-distance running, in athletics (track and field), races that range in distance from 800 metres (roughly one-half mile) to 3,000 metres (almost 2 miles). In international competitions, middle-distance races include the 800 metres, the 1,500 metres (the metric mile), and the 3,000 metres (a steeplechase event for men, but a regular run for women)."
middle-distance running, in athletics (track and field), races that range in distance from 800 metres (roughly one-half mile) to 3,000 metres (almost 2 miles). In international competitions, middle-distance races include the...
"The 800m and 1500m for both men and women are the two middle-distance races that are contested as part of the track and field events during the Olympics."
"Middle Distance and Long Distance running races are the track running events which take place over standard distances. Middle Distance includes 800 meters and 1,500 meters while the Long Distance includes 5,000 meters, 10,000 meters and 3,000 meters steeplechase event."
A brief description of Middle/long Distance to let you know the History, Types, Objective, & Equipment of Middle/long Distance and all significant facts related to Middle/long Distance
If you want to include a non standard non championship distance like 2000m, then so be it. El G broke the WR in that event. But that is offset by Coe's 2 world records outdoors over 1000m and an indoor record over the distance.
The 3000m isn't recognised as a standard middle distance event and El G didn't manage to break the WR in that event.
World Champs are a good measure when comparing someone like Morceli, Rudisha or El G, because they all competed at a time when World champs happened every 2 years from start to finish of their careers. This wasn't the case for Coe - held every 4 years and only in 2nd half of his career. They also didn't occur during Snell's career, who is clearly the second best middle distance runner of all time. Far and away the most significant criteria for evaluating all time lists are Olympic medals and world records, as they are a constant throughout history. Then comes longevity, impact and other honours won.
El G has a very strong claim to be 1500 GOAT, with Rudisha an even stronger claim for 800 Goat, but neither would be in the top 10 of greatest 'middle distance' athletes because neither have anything to offer in the 2nd distance (El G at 800, Rudisha at 1500).
