A closer look at EPO-era performances

Come on Paula.Radcliffe.Fan.Club.

I know that you are really devastated about all of the medical evidence that I keep bringing up about Paula's blood test results.

All of Paula's and/or your explanations have been completely destroyed.

Dr. Martial 'Plan B' Saugy can't help her now.

Please tell Paula to stop crying.

http://i4.irishmirror.ie/incoming/article6915888.ece/ALTERNATES/s1200/PaulaMain.jpg

It is an absolute annoyance.

rekrunner wrote:

I agreed. The Spanish were almost certainly EPO doping, and that is the best they could do.

spanish stats wrote:

What the heck are you conflating here? Every single Spanish distance running record from 800m through to the marathon (with the exception of the highly popular and very frequently run 2000m and 20000m on the track) was set after the introduction of EPO. Spanish distance running post 1990 is practically a case study of the improvements EPO can give in a numerically declining population of serious distance runners.

That was the 'best they could do' because their total number of serious distance runners was probably 1 or 2% of that of Ethiopia and Kenya's. Still enough to dominate (along with even tinier Portugal) distance running in Europe at the time.

Yes these are accurate figures in the report for the upper limits. The authors felt it should be more, but gave no higher numbers. The report also says "at least 29%" for WCH and "at least 45%" for PAG. I'm happy to assume 57% or more, because it makes the anomalies between doping and lack of performance bigger.

casual obsever wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

The idea that "Everybody dopes (up to 57%)" (note I specifically said "up to 57%" twice in the first two posts) comes, again not from me, nor you, but from recent surveys on World Champion participants (29-44%) and Pan Arab Games participants (44-57%).

Why do you keep downplaying the high prevalence of doping? Rhetorical question, we all know why.

The surveys resulted in, I cite:

"The estimated prevalence of past-year doping was 43.6% (95% confidence interval 39.4–47.9) at WCA and 57.1% (52.4–61.8) at PAG. "

And the authors explain why these numbers are most likely underestimated...

rekrunner wrote:

I agreed. The Spanish were almost certainly EPO doping, and that is the best they could do.

spanish stats wrote:

What the heck are you conflating here? Every single Spanish distance running record from 800m through to the marathon (with the exception of the highly popular and very frequently run 2000m and 20000m on the track) was set after the introduction of EPO. Spanish distance running post 1990 is practically a case study of the improvements EPO can give in a numerically declining population of serious distance runners.

Yeah improvements in national records and also winning mutiple global championship medals at distances from 1500m through to the marathon - in a country with less than a third of the population of Ethiopia and Kenya combined and a tiny pool of competitive distance runners in comparison. What were they winning before 1990 in comparison? But I suppose that is not noteworthy to you in the same way that you considered Dieter Bauman and Mohmmed Mourhit to be slow runners ....

Yes he got away with doping because he lived in a remote village in New York. All these Africans setting American and European records makes me wonder why so few Americans and Europeans improved by so little.

Blah.blah.blah.com wrote:

It turns out that the American Record of 2:05:38 from the year 2002 is still held by... the MOROCCAN DOPER Khalid Khannouchi.

Ouch.

What a joke.

Dr.SkyRunner.Shiva.at.11333ft.com wrote:

Purdy tables all time performances by equivalent times:

2) Almaz Ayana (managed by Jos Hermens)

When one name tells a thousand tales.

Yes, bringing an example of one is a good response to "why so few ..." If you look back at Page 1, my whole "argument about the non-African "lack" of improvement" preceded the "men's data". If you look back at Page 1, I noted where the women's events did not show the same pattern as the men, with the shorter events being dominated by strong performances in the '80s, and the longer events showing a lack of depth.

casual obsever wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Genzebe Dibaba: 3:50.07 2.0%

Wang Junxia: 8:06.11 3.9%

Paula Radcliffe: 2:15:25 5.3%

Honestly, I am still laughing that the case of Gary's wife single-handedly destroys his whole "argument" about the non-African "lack" of improvement. Well, there are others too, like Baumann etc., but her performance even stands out compared to Genzebe and Junxia!

Anyone still got a copy of the cross country skiers Hgb pre-EPO then during EPO? Hgb was only something like 16 pre-EPO but then shot up to 18 later in the 1990s. It would be good to see a more recent survey.

I recall years back Sandro Donati saying that it was virtually impossible for an elite endurance athlete to have a Hct over 50, then suddenly in the mid-90s literally everyone was over 50.

rekrunner wrote:

I agreed. The Spanish were almost certainly EPO doping, and that is the best they could do.

spanish stats wrote:

What the heck are you conflating here? Every single Spanish distance running record from 800m through to the marathon (with the exception of the highly popular and very frequently run 2000m and 20000m on the track) was set after the introduction of EPO. Spanish distance running post 1990 is practically a case study of the improvements EPO can give in a numerically declining population of serious distance runners.

Yeah, Cacho & Estevez were rubbish.

Cacho was included in the data. Among non-Africans, only Cacho and Nick Willis ran marginally faster than the top-5 times pre-1990. Cacho was 0.4% faster. Makes me wonder, why so few, by so little? Cacho was the only Spaniard running faster than pre-EPO #5 Abdi Bile. I don't know if Cacho doped.

Voice of Reason wrote:

spanish stats wrote:

What the heck are you conflating here? Every single Spanish distance running record from 800m through to the marathon (with the exception of the highly popular and very frequently run 2000m and 20000m on the track) was set after the introduction of EPO. Spanish distance running post 1990 is practically a case study of the improvements EPO can give in a numerically declining population of serious distance runners.

Gary R doesn't care because they didn't run fast enough. Though he might give some notice to Cacho's 3:28.95, which 41st all-time and fastest non-African 1500m.

I understood Spain to be one of the best demonstrations of the powerful effect of EPO. Forgetting Ethiopia and Kenya and Morocco, I also compared Spain against non-Africans, and against pre-1990 results.

Coevett wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

I agreed. The Spanish were almost certainly EPO doping, and that is the best they could do.

That was the 'best they could do' because their total number of serious distance runners was probably 1 or 2% of that of Ethiopia and Kenya's. Still enough to dominate (along with even tinier Portugal) distance running in Europe at the time.

rekrunner wrote:

Cacho was included in the data. Among non-Africans, only Cacho and Nick Willis ran marginally faster than the top-5 times pre-1990. Cacho was 0.4% faster. Makes me wonder, why so few, by so little?

Because Africans doped themselves silly with the introduction of EPO, and that (along with significant age cheating in junior events) pretty much set back distance running in the non-doping world by about 20 years. Nick Willis was post EPO (or post EPO testing) btw.

After 19 pages of this thread, you still don't get this - the only possible explanation will always be the African superman in your racist small minded self-hating middle-class white hobby jogger who could never break 23 minutes for the 5K mind?

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

I agreed. The Spanish were almost certainly EPO doping, and that is the best they could do.

Yeah, Cacho & Estevez were rubbish.

So were Rey & Garcia. ?

So were Anton, and Fiz, and Elesio Martin, and Dominguez...

Maybe Rekrunner is a secret elite who blasts a marathon in sub 2 hours every Sunday morning and he is holding all these runners to his high standards ...

Thanks for reply, but I asked for African out of Africa with results close to WR, none of mentioned athletes in among at least 30 fastest all timers, only S. Waijru (or what was his name) and looks like that he was coached by Federico Rosa?

Why Africans are better, maybe because they training camp are set as full professional runners?

US and EU need to work, study, doesn't have organized teams of ITALIAN dirty doctors students of maybe prof. Conconi.

We saw what talented Italian doctor can do - Ferrari. Mostly known for cooperation with Armstrong.

Without him Armstrong would NEVER EVER won TdF EVER.

So much about doctor expertise and effect on training.

What is important to know about Armstrong (since he talked about it, so guessing is out of question) is that he used coctails of drugs not only EPO, and he won only his first TdF on EPO, all others on blood doping.

This doesn't mean that in his PREPARATIONS he was not on EPO, but during the race from 2000 onward he used only blood doping.

He won all TdF during his preparation, race was only execution of previous fittnes gained with all coctails he used.

If I remeber correctly most of the Kenyans are busted for steroids not for EPO, correct?

On this board every distance runner thinks that steroids are only for bodybuilders, well, they doesn't have any idea about steroids, since the most beneficial reason for distance runners to use them is RECOVERY not bulking the muscles.

The shear amount of training intensity proposed by one Italian coach here will break legs of EVERY human been, therefore also Kenyans need steroids and with steroids glowing time is months long, and without OOC testing, until maybe last 1-2 years Kenya and Ethyopia are Eldorado for dopers - especially during '90, as Sir Mo knows.

Regarding Sir Mo, in NOP or UK he can have the most advanced training facilities in the world still he needs to go for months in those sh*thole countries for "preparation". BS.

He went there only for doping and nothing else, and he is the best African out of Africa.

Non of them EVER approached world record times while they living out of Africa. Without PEDs they are just only very good runners.

What about blood doping, Africans can't do it since they doesn't have refrigerators down there?

I'am sure that they have better refrigerators then either of us in our homes, you think that Italians would live there without air conditions and refrigerators, then you don't know Italians.

BTW Paula is still WR holder, so why nobody can approach her time? And she most liklely used blood doping for that according to leaked blood values.

So instead of EPO we should use word PED since we just don't know what they use.

Why EU or US athletes didn't have drastic improvement during '90?

They didn't have enough money to pay for Ferrari and Africans had all that for free...

I just wonder what % of prizes they have to give to Italians.

In EU and US you on your own, not so in Africa and not so in NOP.

I do recall something way back in 2015, about a couple of measurements collected under conditions known to produce false positives, among many more points which were collected, transported, stored, and analyzed using processes known to introduce measurement variations. I recall the IAAF explained this quite well with many scientific papers, and the WADA IC concurred the explanation was sound. If there ever existed any issue, it died then. Even the British tabloids realized the futility, and declared defeat. Knowing this history, it would be irresponsible for someone knowledgeable about blood data to attempt any comparison. But keep fighting the good fight.

Wrong.Again.rekrunner.com wrote:

Come on Paula.Radcliffe.Fan.Club.

I know that you are really devastated about all of the medical evidence that I keep bringing up about Paula's blood test results.

All of Paula's and/or your explanations have been completely destroyed.

Dr. Martial 'Plan B' Saugy can't help her now.

Please tell Paula to stop crying.

It is an absolute annoyance.

The question was how all these great Spanish athletes compared, not only with East Africans, and North Africans, but relative to pre-1990 ancestors, and with other non-African countries.

Spanish stats wrote:

So were Anton, and Fiz, and Elesio Martin, and Dominguez...

Maybe Rekrunner is a secret elite who blasts a marathon in sub 2 hours every Sunday morning and he is holding all these runners to his high standards ...

I got this all along. Some people believe doping is the only primary factor that explain these performance differences. Some people believe that arguing with a lot of assumptions, exaggerations, extrapolations, proofs by example, and a collection of logical fallacies is enough. It is one hypothesis. It needs refinement. I still find it odd that you think calling Africans dopers is not racist, but recognizing them athletically superior is.

Coevett wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Cacho was included in the data. Among non-Africans, only Cacho and Nick Willis ran marginally faster than the top-5 times pre-1990. Cacho was 0.4% faster. Makes me wonder, why so few, by so little?

Because Africans doped themselves silly with the introduction of EPO, and that (along with significant age cheating in junior events) pretty much set back distance running in the non-doping world by about 20 years. Nick Willis was post EPO (or post EPO testing) btw.

After 19 pages of this thread, you still don't get this - the only possible explanation will always be the African superman in your racist small minded self-hating middle-class white hobby jogger who could never break 23 minutes for the 5K mind?

rekrunner wrote:

I recall the IAAF explained this quite well with many scientific papers

Love your sarcasm. More please!