With "special population" I mean people born, living and training at altitude...
And your second question...are you serious or just trying to provoke? You don't seriously think that epo have no gains?
I'm always trying to provoke thought. I didn't say "no gains". You did say "works...a lot...". I simply don't take that for granted. My "provocative" question to you, and everyone, is always the same -- assuming for discussion that it "works...a lot..." for East Africans, where were the "EPO (or other PEDs) "works...a lot..."" for sea-level non-Africans?
I'll concede for the sake of argument that continuous micro-dosing of EPO for every moment of your life for decades "works". This "special population" of being born, living, and training at altitude have the environmental advantage of continuous natural stimulation of EPO, every day and every minute of their life, from the moment they are born. For that reason alone, it seems like, to the extent that EPO provides gains, adding synthetic EPO on top should provide significantly more gains for sea-level athletes, who lack this continuous lifelong micro-dosed stimulation, than for lifelong altitude residents who will have already achieved these gains, naturally.
Yet when I looked at EPO-era performances spanning 28 years from1990-2017, before the widespread impact of supershoes, I found the opposite. Despite representing 85% of the world, there were absolutely very few non-African athletes (a low quantity) outperforming the best times of the 1980s, before EPO. East Africans (representing 6% of the world population) outnumbered non-Africans by more than a factor of 10. And from the few that did outperform the 1980s, the best non-Africans were significantly slower (lower quality) than the corresponding group of East Africans. Measuring relative progress from the best of the various groups compared to the 1980s, the East Africans improved by a factor of 3 to 4x more than the sea-level non-Africans.
So when someone says EPO works a lot, my question is always, since EPO was available and used worldwide, where were the "works a lot" sea-level non-African performances for nearly three decades, or at the very least, in the decade when there was no test at all for EPO?
Your undoing is you fail to examine the performance benefits of the individual confirmed doping cases of some of the non-African runners over the years.
Instead you keep comparing the non-African nations as a whole against a superhuman group of East Africans.
Remember the Cathal Lombard case?
A lower-tier elite who in two years went from a 14:27 & 30:35 to world-class times of 13:19 & 27:33! - all in his late-twenties.
If that's not a substantial benefit from rocket fuel...then I don't know what is. Lol.
Your undoing is you fail to examine the performance benefits of the individual confirmed doping cases of some of the non-African runners over the years.
Instead you keep comparing the non-African nations as a whole against a superhuman group of East Africans.
Remember the Cathal Lombard case?
A lower-tier elite who in two years went from a 14:27 & 30:35 to world-class times of 13:19 & 27:33! - all in his late-twenties.
If that's not a substantial benefit from rocket fuel...then I don't know what is. Lol.
Also, we could talk about those Spanish marathoners that were running fast times & cleaning up on WC Golds back in the 1990s. Lol
When you read my posts carefully, I do not compare "non-African nations as a whole against a superhuman group of East Africans". I compared sea-level non-Africans post-1990 to their sea-level pre-EPO 1980s predecessors.
If the best non-African 10,000m EPO doper of all time is Cathal Lombard at 27:33, slower than Lopes, Mamede, and Barrios, you are just making my point.
Likewise when the best non-African EPO dopers are the Spanish marathoners slower than Lopes, and Jones.
I'm always trying to provoke thought. I didn't say "no gains". You did say "works...a lot...". I simply don't take that for granted. My "provocative" question to you, and everyone, is always the same -- assuming for discussion that it "works...a lot..." for East Africans, where were the "EPO (or other PEDs) "works...a lot..."" for sea-level non-Africans?
I'll concede for the sake of argument that continuous micro-dosing of EPO for every moment of your life for decades "works". This "special population" of being born, living, and training at altitude have the environmental advantage of continuous natural stimulation of EPO, every day and every minute of their life, from the moment they are born. For that reason alone, it seems like, to the extent that EPO provides gains, adding synthetic EPO on top should provide significantly more gains for sea-level athletes, who lack this continuous lifelong micro-dosed stimulation, than for lifelong altitude residents who will have already achieved these gains, naturally.
Yet when I looked at EPO-era performances spanning 28 years from1990-2017, before the widespread impact of supershoes, I found the opposite. Despite representing 85% of the world, there were absolutely very few non-African athletes (a low quantity) outperforming the best times of the 1980s, before EPO. East Africans (representing 6% of the world population) outnumbered non-Africans by more than a factor of 10. And from the few that did outperform the 1980s, the best non-Africans were significantly slower (lower quality) than the corresponding group of East Africans. Measuring relative progress from the best of the various groups compared to the 1980s, the East Africans improved by a factor of 3 to 4x more than the sea-level non-Africans.
So when someone says EPO works a lot, my question is always, since EPO was available and used worldwide, where were the "works a lot" sea-level non-African performances for nearly three decades, or at the very least, in the decade when there was no test at all for EPO?
Your undoing is you fail to examine the performance benefits of the individual confirmed doping cases of some of the non-African runners over the years.
Instead you keep comparing the non-African nations as a whole against a superhuman group of East Africans.
Remember the Cathal Lombard case?
A lower-tier elite who in two years went from a 14:27 & 30:35 to world-class times of 13:19 & 27:33! - all in his late-twenties.
If that's not a substantial benefit from rocket fuel...then I don't know what is. Lol.
Your undoing is you fail to examine the performance benefits of the individual confirmed doping cases of some of the non-African runners over the years.
Instead you keep comparing the non-African nations as a whole against a superhuman group of East Africans.
Remember the Cathal Lombard case?
A lower-tier elite who in two years went from a 14:27 & 30:35 to world-class times of 13:19 & 27:33! - all in his late-twenties.
If that's not a substantial benefit from rocket fuel...then I don't know what is. Lol.
Also, we could talk about those Spanish marathoners that were running fast times & cleaning up on WC Golds back in the 1990s. Lol
When you read my posts carefully, I do not compare "non-African nations as a whole against a superhuman group of East Africans". I compared sea-level non-Africans post-1990 to their sea-level pre-EPO 1980s predecessors.
If the best non-African 10,000m EPO doper of all time is Cathal Lombard at 27:33, slower than Lopes, Mamede, and Barrios, you are just making my point.
Likewise when the best non-African EPO dopers are the Spanish marathoners slower than Lopes, and Jones.
So Lombard, who improved 3 minutes from doping, proved what "point" of yours exactly? That EPO is a placebo?
When you read my posts carefully, I do not compare "non-African nations as a whole against a superhuman group of East Africans". I compared sea-level non-Africans post-1990 to their sea-level pre-EPO 1980s predecessors.
If the best non-African 10,000m EPO doper of all time is Cathal Lombard at 27:33, slower than Lopes, Mamede, and Barrios, you are just making my point.
Likewise when the best non-African EPO dopers are the Spanish marathoners slower than Lopes, and Jones.
So Lombard, who improved 3 minutes from doping, proved what "point" of yours exactly? That EPO is a placebo?
I was addressing those who read posts carefully.
Superficially, "what about Lombard?" might seem like a strong example, but when you scratch the surface, it is not.
First, did Lombard improve 3 minutes "from doping"? That is presumptuous. There are too many unknowns. Lombard signficantly changed his training, reducing his volume by half, and adding intensity, and changed his coach.
Lombard's gains are not that different to the gains Wejo made when he changed his training after college (see "Why I sucked in College"). Adapting your training to suit your strengths "works".
The example of Lombard "proves" no point because you can not prove a point by example. That is a fallacy.
Had you read my post, my point was that historically there were few non-Africans that ran faster than the fastest pre-EPO era 1980s athletes during the EPO-era (the entirety of 28 years between 1990-2017), and the few that have, did not run that much faster. If the best demonstration of EPO "working" for elite non-Africans is Cathal Lombard, that helps make the point because he was slower than the pre-EPO era performances of Lopes, Mamede, and Barrios.
When Cathal Lombard raced 27:33, he took 3rd in a time trial setup to get the Oympic Standard, 5 seconds ahead of college sophomore Dathan Ritzenheim. Lombard's only other 10,000m time at "alltime athletics" is a race where he took 4th. Cathal Lombard was never a real threat in elite 10,000m running. Similarly, in 5000m, he has two results, which were 5th and 6th place.
If Cathal Lombard is the very best non-African example, his lack of impact on elite running only helps make my point.
So Lombard, who improved 3 minutes from doping, proved what "point" of yours exactly? That EPO is a placebo?
I was addressing those who read posts carefully.
Superficially, "what about Lombard?" might seem like a strong example, but when you scratch the surface, it is not.
First, did Lombard improve 3 minutes "from doping"? That is presumptuous. There are too many unknowns. Lombard signficantly changed his training, reducing his volume by half, and adding intensity, and changed his coach.
Lombard's gains are not that different to the gains Wejo made when he changed his training after college (see "Why I sucked in College"). Adapting your training to suit your strengths "works".
The example of Lombard "proves" no point because you can not prove a point by example. That is a fallacy.
Had you read my post, my point was that historically there were few non-Africans that ran faster than the fastest pre-EPO era 1980s athletes during the EPO-era (the entirety of 28 years between 1990-2017), and the few that have, did not run that much faster. If the best demonstration of EPO "working" for elite non-Africans is Cathal Lombard, that helps make the point because he was slower than the pre-EPO era performances of Lopes, Mamede, and Barrios.
When Cathal Lombard raced 27:33, he took 3rd in a time trial setup to get the Oympic Standard, 5 seconds ahead of college sophomore Dathan Ritzenheim. Lombard's only other 10,000m time at "alltime athletics" is a race where he took 4th. Cathal Lombard was never a real threat in elite 10,000m running. Similarly, in 5000m, he has two results, which were 5th and 6th place.
If Cathal Lombard is the very best non-African example, his lack of impact on elite running only helps make my point.
So you've persuaded yourself once again with the Lombard example that even with a known doper his doping didn't help him and it especially doesn't help top runners - who nonetheless continue to dope against your best advice that they are wasting their time.
Superficially, "what about Lombard?" might seem like a strong example, but when you scratch the surface, it is not.
First, did Lombard improve 3 minutes "from doping"? That is presumptuous. There are too many unknowns. Lombard signficantly changed his training, reducing his volume by half, and adding intensity, and changed his coach.
Lombard's gains are not that different to the gains Wejo made when he changed his training after college (see "Why I sucked in College"). Adapting your training to suit your strengths "works".
The example of Lombard "proves" no point because you can not prove a point by example. That is a fallacy.
Had you read my post, my point was that historically there were few non-Africans that ran faster than the fastest pre-EPO era 1980s athletes during the EPO-era (the entirety of 28 years between 1990-2017), and the few that have, did not run that much faster. If the best demonstration of EPO "working" for elite non-Africans is Cathal Lombard, that helps make the point because he was slower than the pre-EPO era performances of Lopes, Mamede, and Barrios.
When Cathal Lombard raced 27:33, he took 3rd in a time trial setup to get the Oympic Standard, 5 seconds ahead of college sophomore Dathan Ritzenheim. Lombard's only other 10,000m time at "alltime athletics" is a race where he took 4th. Cathal Lombard was never a real threat in elite 10,000m running. Similarly, in 5000m, he has two results, which were 5th and 6th place.
If Cathal Lombard is the very best non-African example, his lack of impact on elite running only helps make my point.
So you've persuaded yourself once again with the Lombard example that even with a known doper his doping didn't help him and it especially doesn't help top runners - who nonetheless continue to dope against your best advice that they are wasting their time.
Trolling again and not bothering to read what the previous poster had said. Better than a racist response though.
Cathal Lombard, former Irish 10,000 record holder 27:33, EPO assisted, is these days a very successful litigation lawyer in Cork, Ireland, with excellent reviews, showing that the one blip in his life did not have any negative impact on his highly successful and lucrative professional life. Life is good for this Irish gentleman with the soft Cork/Irish accent.
Cathal Lombard based in Mallow, Co. Cork leads the firm and is a renowned and experienced Solicitor in the areas of Litigation, Courts and Dispute Resolution, Property and legal services for businesses.
"Cathal Lombard Head of Firm Cathal Lombard leads the firm and is a renowned and experienced Solicitor in the areas of Litigation, Courts and Dispute Resolution, Property and legal services for businesses. Having been a partner in another law firm locally for a number of years, Cathal ultimately took the step of opening a new practice in a central location on Mallow’s Main Street with a view to creating a strong new legal force in the market. Cathal’s reputation is for offering sensible and pragmatic legal advice across a broad range of areas. He is a regarded as an experienced and accomplished Solicitor in litigation cases by clients both locally and regionally, having achieved many six and seven figure awards in the High Court as well as through Mediation and Arbitration. Cathal also has extensive experience in property based work and has acted in a number of contentious property disputes. He provides a broad range of legal services to businesses in commercial and contractual matters, commercial property, litigation and business disputes. Cathal resides locally in the Mallow area and is married with three children.
Core Areas: Litigation, Courts and Dispute Resolution, Accident & Injury cases, Medical Negligence. Niche Areas: Arbitration of insurance indemnity disputes, Workplace accidents, Fatal accidents, Professional Negligence cases, Commercial Property."
I maintain that relatively few runners from Kenya take EPO when you look at the large number of runners who are practicing and racing in Kenya and very few of the super elite (13:00/27:00/59:00/2:06:00 engage in PEDs. In camps where Kenyan elites train, like the ones in ITEN, Eldoret, Kapsabet, Ngong Hills, etc, athletes who were dabbling in these products would be in danger of lynching if the other boarders found out. That's how serious this question is.
This has been corroborated by Professor Renato Canova, Italia, an eminent sports physiologist and coach who has shown that the benefits of taking EPO for high level athletes living and training at high altitudes is negligible or even without any significant benefit. We should believe the Italian Guru because he has been in direct contact with these Kenyan monsters for around 20 years in duration.
There is something going on with Rhonex K. which does not compute because the slim, youthful looking, always immaculately attired Rhonex has always maintained he would never cross the line in that department. As a God Fearing Christian, as Rhonex is, it would behoove us to listen to Rhonex, who has a Choir boy reputation in ITEN. No one has a bad word to say about the baby faced monster.
Your undoing is you fail to examine the performance benefits of the individual confirmed doping cases of some of the non-African runners over the years.
Instead you keep comparing the non-African nations as a whole against a superhuman group of East Africans.
Remember the Cathal Lombard case?
A lower-tier elite who in two years went from a 14:27 & 30:35 to world-class times of 13:19 & 27:33! - all in his late-twenties.
If that's not a substantial benefit from rocket fuel...then I don't know what is. Lol.
Also, we could talk about those Spanish marathoners that were running fast times & cleaning up on WC Golds back in the 1990s. Lol
When you read my posts carefully, I do not compare "non-African nations as a whole against a superhuman group of East Africans". I compared sea-level non-Africans post-1990 to their sea-level pre-EPO 1980s predecessors.
If the best non-African 10,000m EPO doper of all time is Cathal Lombard at 27:33, slower than Lopes, Mamede, and Barrios, you are just making my point.
Likewise when the best non-African EPO dopers are the Spanish marathoners slower than Lopes, and Jones.
I'm not making your point unless you're implying that Lombard's PBs are slower then other top elites pre-EPO.
You're always quick to point out some fasters times of top elites pre-EPO against the performance improvements that are noted with some of these confirmed EPO cases that I present. In addition, there was doping occuring - including blood transfusions - with some athletes in the 70s & 80s time period pre-EPO.
My point is with Lombard you have a lower-level elite in late 20s who makes a dramatic improvement in his 5 & 10 - running world class times & qualifying for 2004 Olympics - in a relatively short period of time who just happens to test positive for EPO.
So Lombard, who improved 3 minutes from doping, proved what "point" of yours exactly? That EPO is a placebo?
I was addressing those who read posts carefully.
Superficially, "what about Lombard?" might seem like a strong example, but when you scratch the surface, it is not.
First, did Lombard improve 3 minutes "from doping"? That is presumptuous. There are too many unknowns. Lombard signficantly changed his training, reducing his volume by half, and adding intensity, and changed his coach.
Lombard's gains are not that different to the gains Wejo made when he changed his training after college (see "Why I sucked in College"). Adapting your training to suit your strengths "works".
The example of Lombard "proves" no point because you can not prove a point by example. That is a fallacy.
Had you read my post, my point was that historically there were few non-Africans that ran faster than the fastest pre-EPO era 1980s athletes during the EPO-era (the entirety of 28 years between 1990-2017), and the few that have, did not run that much faster. If the best demonstration of EPO "working" for elite non-Africans is Cathal Lombard, that helps make the point because he was slower than the pre-EPO era performances of Lopes, Mamede, and Barrios.
When Cathal Lombard raced 27:33, he took 3rd in a time trial setup to get the Oympic Standard, 5 seconds ahead of college sophomore Dathan Ritzenheim. Lombard's only other 10,000m time at "alltime athletics" is a race where he took 4th. Cathal Lombard was never a real threat in elite 10,000m running. Similarly, in 5000m, he has two results, which were 5th and 6th place.
If Cathal Lombard is the very best non-African example, his lack of impact on elite running only helps make my point.
So, is it your conclusion that EPO had absolutely no impact on Lombard's improvement and it was 100% the result of him changing his coach, changing his training, reducing his volume in half, etc?
How about Kiptum? Is it your conclusion that doping had no effect on his HM WR performance at Valencia where on his ABP he recorded a 60% Hct & corresponding OFF-score of 145 - both values exceeding the 99.99% specificity level (less than 1 in 10,000 of being undoped).
How Daniel Wanjiru? (His hearing is now available for review) Would it be your conclusion that doping had no effect on his 3rd place place finish - running a time of 1:01:17, 1 & 2 seconds behind Bashir & Farah - at the 2019 London Big Half where on the eve of the race he recorded a near 60% Hct (19.4 Hgb) & a corresponding OFF-score of 132 - both values exceeding the 99.99% specificity level?
Sport Resolutions is a global independent, not-for-profit, dispute resolution service for sports, offering arbitration, mediation, tribunal and expert opinion.
Wanjiru had two experts on his defense team. His main contention was that he descended from altitude in village in Kenya just a few days before the race therefore contending that it affected the Hgb values. One of the anti-doping experts for the IAAF was Dr. Lewis, who has expertise in hematological values of athletes that live & train at high altitude & descend to sea-level for races. She provided excellent expert testimony & really explains the science of this altitude issue.
Microdoses with intravenous rHuEPO provide a sufficient erythropoietic stimuli to augment tHb and enhance aerobic-dominated performance in both trained males and females.
Conclusions: Microdoses with intravenous rHuEPO provide a sufficient erythropoietic stimuli to augment tHb and enhance aerobic-dominated performance in both trained males and females.
So you've persuaded yourself once again with the Lombard example that even with a known doper his doping didn't help him and it especially doesn't help top runners - who nonetheless continue to dope against your best advice that they are wasting their time.
Trolling again and not bothering to read what the previous poster had said. Better than a racist response though.
I'll leave that you. But to respond to rekrunner's posts in detail is to give them a credence they don't deserve. But you don't get that.
"Cathal Lombard Head of Firm Cathal Lombard leads the firm and is a renowned and experienced Solicitor in the areas of Litigation, Courts and Dispute Resolution, Property and legal services for businesses. Having been a partner in another law firm locally for a number of years, Cathal ultimately took the step of opening a new practice in a central location on Mallow’s Main Street with a view to creating a strong new legal force in the market. Cathal’s reputation is for offering sensible and pragmatic legal advice across a broad range of areas. He is a regarded as an experienced and accomplished Solicitor in litigation cases by clients both locally and regionally, having achieved many six and seven figure awards in the High Court as well as through Mediation and Arbitration. Cathal also has extensive experience in property based work and has acted in a number of contentious property disputes. He provides a broad range of legal services to businesses in commercial and contractual matters, commercial property, litigation and business disputes. Cathal resides locally in the Mallow area and is married with three children.
Core Areas: Litigation, Courts and Dispute Resolution, Accident & Injury cases, Medical Negligence. Niche Areas: Arbitration of insurance indemnity disputes, Workplace accidents, Fatal accidents, Professional Negligence cases, Commercial Property."
It appears EPO enhances careers as well as sports performances.
I maintain that relatively few runners from Kenya take EPO when you look at the large number of runners who are practicing and racing in Kenya and very few of the super elite (13:00/27:00/59:00/2:06:00 engage in PEDs. In camps where Kenyan elites train, like the ones in ITEN, Eldoret, Kapsabet, Ngong Hills, etc, athletes who were dabbling in these products would be in danger of lynching if the other boarders found out. That's how serious this question is.
This has been corroborated by Professor Renato Canova, Italia, an eminent sports physiologist and coach who has shown that the benefits of taking EPO for high level athletes living and training at high altitudes is negligible or even without any significant benefit. We should believe the Italian Guru because he has been in direct contact with these Kenyan monsters for around 20 years in duration.
There is something going on with Rhonex K. which does not compute because the slim, youthful looking, always immaculately attired Rhonex has always maintained he would never cross the line in that department. As a God Fearing Christian, as Rhonex is, it would behoove us to listen to Rhonex, who has a Choir boy reputation in ITEN. No one has a bad word to say about the baby faced monster.
Kenyans are world-leading dopers. They have had more antidoping violations for distance running in the last couple of years than anyone else. Yet those caught are a fraction of those doping. You deniers need a drug that will help you to wake up.
I maintain that relatively few runners from Kenya take EPO when you look at the large number of runners who are practicing and racing in Kenya and very few of the super elite (13:00/27:00/59:00/2:06:00 engage in PEDs. In camps where Kenyan elites train, like the ones in ITEN, Eldoret, Kapsabet, Ngong Hills, etc, athletes who were dabbling in these products would be in danger of lynching if the other boarders found out. That's how serious this question is.
This has been corroborated by Professor Renato Canova, Italia, an eminent sports physiologist and coach who has shown that the benefits of taking EPO for high level athletes living and training at high altitudes is negligible or even without any significant benefit. We should believe the Italian Guru because he has been in direct contact with these Kenyan monsters for around 20 years in duration.
There is something going on with Rhonex K. which does not compute because the slim, youthful looking, always immaculately attired Rhonex has always maintained he would never cross the line in that department. As a God Fearing Christian, as Rhonex is, it would behoove us to listen to Rhonex, who has a Choir boy reputation in ITEN. No one has a bad word to say about the baby faced monster.
Kenyans are world-leading dopers. They have had more antidoping violations for distance running in the last couple of years than anyone else. Yet those caught are a fraction of those doping. You deniers need a drug that will help you to wake up.
Kenyans are prolific high level distance runners and the depth in Kenya is phenomenal with several thousand international level runners in Kenya training full time. Bigger pond, more fish, more catches, perfectly logical.
What I find disturbing is that the vast majority of clean runners (Kipchoge, Kamworor, Kandie, etc) are, by default, sometimes associated with the tiny fraction of mostly B and C level runners who crossed the line.
A reality check is needed. We disapprove of cheaters just as much as you, Coevett and other luminaries-mavericks, but at the same time we have concerns about the gross exaggeration re doping allegations.
Kenyans are prolific high level distance runners and the depth in Kenya is phenomenal with several thousand international level runners in Kenya training full time. Bigger pond, more fish, more catches, perfectly logical.
What I find disturbing is that the vast majority of clean runners (Kipchoge, Kamworor, Kandie, etc) are, by default, sometimes associated with the tiny fraction of mostly B and C level runners who crossed the line.
A reality check is needed. We disapprove of cheaters just as much as you, Coevett and other luminaries-mavericks, but at the same time we have concerns about the gross exaggeration re doping allegations.
A modicum of level headedness is much in order.
Thank you.
How many times do we need to keep pointing out to you the big names that have been busted, including world record holders, world champions, world junior champions? No matter how many times we do it, you doping apologists will just keep repeating this lie that it's only because Kenya has more runners. Besides, you have so many 'international runners' because you have so many dopers. Only a fool would think that all the 'bad apples' are being caught.
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