Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread

An accomplice on a motorcycle, which his look-a-like brother has a license for.

"I'm thinking the way he got from the 15k to the half was by running".

Already been said friend, by several people. He had to have run parts of it, no doubt about it, we all know that. He could have had 2 old bikes stashed and ran 10 actual miles if not more, who knows. Sorry, I too am in the group that says it would not be difficult at all. I'm in Virginia and could cheat the 10 miler every year if I wanted, but would not think of even doing it, morals.

Knot 2 difficult 2 understand wrote:

No Scott, it sounds like you're jealous as I never read some of those theories on this thread, so please show them to me (the hotel one especially).

Boy Scott, I will say that you are absolutely a great announcer, but you don't have too many smarts upstairs do ya?

Ah, you're right, I have no idea what I'm talking about. But I'm also not going to waste time guessing how he cheated in his races. Nothing to gain by it. Zero, zip. I don't want to guess - I want to KNOW ... and our only source ain't talking. When I publish something, I don't want guess-work, I want verifiable info or damning circumstantial evidence.

Jealous? Geez, if you want to feel like you're the first guy to come up your theory, fine. Your theory will NOT appear in the body of a story about the con man. Here's why: it's far, far more delicious & appealing to say what we know he did, than guess how he did it. Sure, we know he either walked, jogged, rode a bike, car, bus, train, whatever between leave-the-course points in many of his marathons. What I've just said could be summed in one sentence in the story - while his trail of transgressions, correspondence, quotes, from various affected people, etc will be 99% longer.

If he were to share how he cheated, that would fill out the story nicely, eliminate the need for guesswork and help portray the man as someone w/a conscience. As it is, we're left doubting that.

Per announcing I do - I'm not any better at that than I am laying things out as they are as a writer - and not as they might be. In other words, I see it/know it - I call it. Guessing doesn't cut it. Guessing is what takes place on anonymous message boards where you can't be held personally accountable.

You long for the approval of others Scott and need validation. Why? No clue who Mr. Knot is, but your opinion is certainly no more important than his, mine or anyone else's on this thread, including those who've really done the work, NOT you. He has no conscience Scott, he was caught.

think about it wrote:

Is the issue of who registered Dr. Litton for the Cowtown Marathon, that indoor marathon, and the 2012 Boston Marathon addressed in the article? Dr. Litton did not register himself for any of these races.

No one is directly addressing this issue.

Pike's Peak & Run Thru Hell wrote:

He's right, Mr. Hubbard has a tad of arrogance in his words and I too would have given it back. Mr. Hubbard has not said anything that we didn't already know. Why is he telling the guy a quote about what Litton said at the Crim? Who cares? I ran it in the 90's twice and he's right, no one would get lost on that course, meaning he cheated, no surprise there. Mr. Hubbard wants to point out "HIS" theory when in fact, there is actually is no other way to get from point to point unless you use a bike, a car, a friend, or actually run the damn thing (all which have been mentioned). Getting him to admit it and say how does nothing as it's not magical at all, just cheating.

I went 3 shades of stupid reading this above. I have no 'theories' my friend. Kip Litton had a 5 mile split, meaning he was on Bradley St, w/3 different roads to his left he could take back downtown to shortcut the course. All of them would slice at least 2 miles off. Which one he took and how he got back to the finish straight on Saginaw is not material to me. All I need to know is he cheated which I know by 2 means: he isn't capable of a 56+ min 10 mile and he, personally, had his time removed from the results, explaining he hadn't run the whole course. My quote came from a friend who quizzed him about the whole thing. There - you have facts. If truth is arrogance, I'm quilty as charged. Funny thing, I get paid to tell the truth.

scotth wrote:

When I publish something, I don't want guess-work, I want verifiable info or damning circumstantial evidence.

So you're back to writing the article now? Geez. Make up your mind will you.

dartmoth graduate wrote:

think about it wrote:

Is the issue of who registered Dr. Litton for the Cowtown Marathon, that indoor marathon, and the 2012 Boston Marathon addressed in the article? Dr. Litton did not register himself for any of these races.

No one is directly addressing this issue.

Why not?

Speculating on how he cheated has been discussed ad nauseum and it has gone nowhere. Why bring it up again?

For once, the truth wrote:

Again, the gratuitous nastiness. Yes, it's The New Yorker. No, I'm not going to give you my name now -- that's irrelevant, what's relevant is the actual story -- so please give up that silly little guessing game, everyone.

With the information given, it doesn't take too much work to determine that you are Mark Singer, genius.

Hypothetically, if someone wanted to cut the course, why could they not have actually run the first half entirely and did the bike thing the second half?

GK - saw you did 2:44 in Boston. Very impressive. Congrats.

scotth wrote:Guessing doesn't cut it. Guessing is what takes place on anonymous message boards where you can't be held personally accountable.

As I've said, I think you're a good guy but I don't think it is actually possible or fruitful to maintain as you seem to that unless we reconstruct his method of cheating down to exactly how many knots he tied in his running shoes and the average speed of his vehicle he used to get between the checkpoints then we are wasting our time. Its rather like saying that in science we only accept Theorems and that Theories (in the strict scientific term) are just wild guesses.

If we accept that he achieved his marathon times other than running the entire route then a wheeled vehicle of some kind was involved, that is not a guess, that is a logical inference.

I haven't looked at this thread for several months, but thought I'd see what happened with Boston. I see nothing has changed- scotth still is still pretty condescending, still hints at being involved with this just-about-to-be-published-story, and the story is still a short time from being published. Just like back in 10/2011, when kirkaz wrote:

"I've tried to ask Clarkston Kent how much longer, and i've told you what the hold up is right now

1)the writer is on business trip

2)contacting Kip"

Back in 6 months, to see which magazine is supposedly about to publish the saga with all the rich details scotth hints at...

Good point. Thanks, by the way.

It seems like a sound theory. It does make me wonder how much of these he actually runs. He did do a legit 1:27 half marathon for sure. I actually believe (perhaps foolishly) that he's a solid runner. If he admitted to this cheating crap, and started running legit then I bet he'd be able to hit times near the ones that he cheats to get. Times like a sub-3 or an 18min 5k. So, to me, the WHY is just as fascinating as the HOW.

I like Scott's point about speculating being pointless. If he did it alone, and nobody saw him, then he's the only one that knows. And he appears to be pleading the FIF. We won't KNOW until Kip starts talking. The guy should be bragging about how good of a cheat he is. He's come up with some very creative methods (West Wyoming). Hell, he was credited with a WY sub-3 (one of the hardest states for a sub-3) for many months and he could've done it without leaving his house in Michigan! Even a former marathon cheat (possible troll) said that Vermont City, Boston, and Virginia Beach were un-cheatable. A collaborative effort by many good runners pooling ideas can't figure out HOW he cheated in a lot of these races.

I feel rather than coming up with ideas how he cheated we come up with ideas on how to convince Kip to speak up. As it stands now, the only thing Kip would get out of fessing up is embarrassment.

I, for one, cannot wait for the article. I can't wait to see what gems of information the writer was able to drag out of ole Kipster in those interviews.

dontflushwhileyousit wrote:

For once, the truth wrote:

Again, the gratuitous nastiness. Yes, it's The New Yorker. No, I'm not going to give you my name now -- that's irrelevant, what's relevant is the actual story -- so please give up that silly little guessing game, everyone.

Hello, Mark Singer. How goes it, old sport?

Is it really Mark Singer? The same Mark Singer who Donald Trump made cry during an interview a few years back?

I think it was a 1:28 half marathon at Maine that we determined was legitimate, because he had a person following him the whole way. (was originally going to do marathon, but changed to the half marathon at the last minute, sources say)

At Detroit Free Press Relay, we know Kip cut it short, & initially he made up a bunch of excuses and then said he mustve taken a wrong turn according to Scott...& we're told he took Rosa Parks Blvd instead of the street that's part of the course. This relay starts in Canada and goes through an underwater tunnel to Detroit.

At Go! St Louis, Kip missed 6Mi and 20Mi splits (but hit the 13.1 split). I speculate in his cheating plans that he knew all about the obvious 13.1 Half split mats but didnt know about the 6Mi and 20Mi mats so he forgot to register through them when he cheated. He finished in the top 20, and all of the other 19 finishers had the 6Mi and 20Mi splits, but not Kip.

While at some level you feel bad for the guy because he's got some issues, his continual lying and deceit makes you dig more and more into his life, whereabouts and these issues. I mean To go to such lengths as to invent a marathon...If he would just come onto this forum and offer some kind of response, that would be awesome. But it's the same crap. He just digs a bigger and bigger hole for himself. It's why many of us have become obsessed with a random hobbyjogger marathoner. The behavior is very bizarre but fascinating at same time.

I think it's worth noting that people (incl. the writer) have talked to those in Kip's community and running group. I've heard at least one of them say that there is no way that he could break 18 [for 5K] but that he might be a sub 19 runner but only on a good day. Interesting, because for 7-8mile portions of marathons he "ran" close to his 5K PR pace.

GK is right that the HOW at 2010 Boston is not so easy to figure out. it requires a lot of careful planning to hit the splits at a very consistent pace (6:20-6:30/mi). Kip did a good job how ever he did it as he stayed pretty close to 6:20-6:30ish/mile at each 10K interval, which is pretty amazing being in a full black sweatsuit and with the clothing changes post 30K. He maintained a 6:20-6:30/mile effort on some of the most difficult portions of the course (Heartbreak hill), The only portion he slowed significantly was from 12mi to 13.1mi (near Wellesley College I guess) where he was in the 8:+min/mi range, which could be for any number of reasons. The clothing change occurred somewhere from 30K to the finish yet he maintained close to 7flat pace near the end of the race.

GK wrote:

As it stands now, the only thing Kip would get out of fessing up is embarrassment.

He would get closure as the subject would have one final breath then die if we were left with nothing to speculate about. To achieve this, he'd just need a "I did it. This is how I did it. This is why, unfortunately, I went down this path. I'm sorry and just want to get back to running." Surely, he's mulled over some good storylines in his head over the last year and a half.

He could then go out and run some boring, but credible times, all backed up by his garmin posts. This whole subject would become a yawner very quickly.

For once, the truth wrote:

Again, the gratuitous nastiness. Yes, it's The New Yorker. No, I'm not going to give you my name now -- that's irrelevant, what's relevant is the actual story -- so please give up that silly little guessing game, everyone.

Son, this is LR. If you're going to hang around here, you're going to need to put your big boy pants on. Keep up the pretentious drivel and you'll be under your desk in the fetal position. Got it?

@ The Race Kip Used as a Boston Qualifier (Charlotte ThunderRoad)

"I ran with the women's winner [Danielle Crockford At Charlotte ThunderRoad Marathon ] and some other sub-3 and low 3 friends of mine through the 10K mark. I slowed down. I was running the half, finished in 1:33, and he [Dr. Kip Litton] never passed me (the courses split at about the 12 mile mark). He never passed the women's winner but a photo (which I'll send) shows him in front of her at mile 24.5. The jacka$$ jumped back on the course somewhere in front of her LATE in the race and she [Danielle] still caught and passed him. I have another pic of him walking through the finish. We've got to bust this guy at a race!" - Allen, a Charlotte ThunderRoad Half Marathon participant