Jeff Wigand wrote:
Coevett wrote:
Yet she destroyed the East Africans (at her best) and they still can't get near her times
All of Paula's times have been beaten by East African women except for her 2:15:25, which was run with male pacers and had a tailwind much of the way.
Er......'Women' should be singular......i.e. 'woman' - Mary Keitany ('likely doping' in the Fancy Bears leak)
rekrunner wrote:
Crickets chirp at night -- and since it was night, I was sleeping.
If you really ever understood some of what I was saying, I don't find "proof by example" very strong evidence of anything except for that individual example. It's not because we can add one more high profile example to a handful of other examples, that logical fallacies suddenly become valid arguments. Someone astutely said that the plural of anecdote is not proof.
I never denied that the faith in EPO is very strong, and can even reach the top. We can see by the number of athletes who point up to the sky, and make the cross sign, and other symbolic gestures, that even elite athletes make faith an important part of their lives.
It's unfortunate that a new high profile name is added to the list of doping positives. Either Kiprop, or someone around him, had faith in EPO (assuming Kiprop intentionally took EPO for performance), and it's also looking bad for the Rosa's, who, as the brojos put it, are either incompetent (for not managing their athletes with enough oversight), or complicit.
It's a real shame that they obviously did not read my "Closer look at performances in the EPO era" thread, as the 1500m is the one "distance" event which showed comparatively small progress in the EPO era, measured by both quantity and quality. Only 13 athletes ran faster than my pre-EPO threshold in the two decades of 1990-2009. Since the passing of the ABP, when you would expect EPO performances to decline, in only 9 years, the rate more than doubled, as 13 more have run faster, interestingly only at Monaco.
Two important questions for me:
1) When did he start? His last "fast" performance was three years ago in 2015. If we assume he doped in 2015 and before, and continued doping, then we are left with an awkward explanation for why his performances were so bad since, including Rio. If he only doped after, it would fit a pattern of an athlete having a couple years of disappointing performances, tempted to take something to help restore his previous capability. Maybe Rio was the turning point.
.He appeared on the FB leaked document in 2016 as having suspicious markers on his ABP that warranted target testing. Don't you think athletes become aware that they're being targeted and therefore tone it down? Athletes aren't that dumb - they know when the heat is on. Being tested frequently is one clue. Lol. And toned-down doping equals toned-downed performances...no surprises there.
Also, the EPO test sensitivity has gotten better which may have been his undoing - not realizing glow times have been increased with the new testing spectrum. It may have been a "cat & mouse" game with him from the time he tripped his ABP in 2016, and consequently slipping up. Most dopers seem to be one step ahead of anti-doping but some slip up and get caught...nothing new there.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27390252Hot damn! Come to find out our sport is just as bad or worse than the cycling culture that we used to all make fun of.
All the dope has totally ruined endurance sports for me over the last 10 years or so. It's pretty sad. I don't even get into the olympics anymore because it all seems fake to me.
Thanks dopers. Y'all have ruined a beautiful thing.
Yes the 80’s were very bad for sprinting, but the light being shone now is like a pencil torch in the inky ocean depths.
Wigand I remember you as an idealist/utopian/moron, depending on perspective. If you knew what was really going on, you would hurl. These busted athletes are part of a larger system, which used to go all the way to the top of the track world.
Watching Pharmalita get interviewed about her coaching ethos made my skin crawl, how she selects athletes based on whether or not they will get with the program. Such a system is why it is often the intellectually dimmest of athletes that use and get busted.
The Italians are an absolute farce, I wrote about it to Canova years ago. They are some of the central players, and work to keep the money distributed to the right people.
Another rojo scribe wrote:
http://www.letsrun.com/news/2016/01/predictions-new-year-will-mo-farah-win-double-gold-will-tirunesh-dibaba-win-triple-gold-will-kenenisa-bekele-even-compete/rojo wrote:
Let me end this session with a hypothetical. Right before I hopped in bed last night, I thought to myself, ‘If one of the men’s track distance gold medallists from Beijing tests positive in 2016, which one would bother you the most/least?’ So either Rudisha, Kiprop, Kemboi, or Farah goes down. Which positive would bother you the most/least? I don’t know why I came up with that depressing thought, but when I think about track nowadays and who might win and lose, I often think (particularly on the women’s side), ‘Is there a potential doper that could really upset the event?’ Trying to be objective, I thought, ‘Well what if one of them is dirty?’
For me, obviously the most shocking/upsetting would be Kiprop or Rudisha, and I think it’s Kiprop. I might as well just hand in my fan card forever. He just looks like he has a genetic advantage like he’s a prototype that should have been on the cover of The Sports Gene. Those super skinny long legs remind me a swimmer with huge arms. But then again if Rudisha went down, then we lose the best moment of the 2012 Games.
Please don’t misunderstand me, I’m not suggesting I’ve ever heard anything suggesting either is on drugs – it just was a stimulating, albeit depressing, intellectual exercise for me.
A positive by Farah or Kemboi wouldn’t destroy my world view of the sport. ...
It's sad. The reason I loved to watch Kiprop run was because he looked like such a freak of nature - in a good way. With his long skinny legs - when he was full throttle he just looked unbeatable compared to other runners.
Rudisha, to me, has the greatest stride and running style of anyone. Wonderful to watch him run.
It might be that doping is the only way to compete with the other "elites". If, in a perfect world, there were no PEDs, Kiprop might have still ruled as one of the greatest - but we'll never know.
When I look at how marathon times have made such strides in recent years, I shudder to think that it's all due to doping. But maybe it is. That said, these elites still work their asses off and go head to head with tremendous will power and physical discomfort. Sigh.
Then I'll refer you to any of my previous posts where I explain that "benefitted from rocket fuel" and "high responder to EPO" are demonstrations of your faith.
Tell It Like It Is wrote:
Don't start again with your nonsense! You can't whine this time that none of the very at the top runners in the history of the sport hasn't benefited from rocket fuel. ☝️ 5th fastest ever (3:26.69/2015) and only one of three runners to ever go sub-3:27! Just a coincidence that he happens to be associated with rocket fuel?
Kiprop = high responder to EPO.
Sprintgeezer wrote:
Yes the 80’s were very bad for sprinting, but the light being shone now is like a pencil torch in the inky ocean depths.
Wigand I remember you as an idealist/utopian/moron, depending on perspective. If you knew what was really going on, you would hurl. These busted athletes are part of a larger system, which used to go all the way to the top of the track world.
Watching Pharmalita get interviewed about her coaching ethos made my skin crawl, how she selects athletes based on whether or not they will get with the program. Such a system is why it is often the intellectually dimmest of athletes that use and get busted.
The Italians are an absolute farce, I wrote about it to Canova years ago. They are some of the central players, and work to keep the money distributed to the right people.
How is Hermens getting away with it
He seems to be very well connected
Geb and Bekele never busted and doped throughout their careers imo.
The plot thickens :
I might be naive but it appears there are reasons to doubt the process surrounding this positive test...
rekrunner wrote:
Then I'll refer you to any of my previous posts where I explain that "benefitted from rocket fuel" and "high responder to EPO" are demonstrations of your faith.
Tell It Like It Is wrote:
Don't start again with your nonsense! You can't whine this time that none of the very at the top runners in the history of the sport hasn't benefited from rocket fuel. ☝️ 5th fastest ever (3:26.69/2015) and only one of three runners to ever go sub-3:27! Just a coincidence that he happens to be associated with rocket fuel?
Kiprop = high responder to EPO.
There's some real crazies on this board, but Rekrunner might just be the nuttiest.
Kiprop was all set to smash El G's ridiculous record of 3:26.00 while still in his mid-twenties, even El G expected this, then the Rosa bust came and since then he's only broken 3:32 once (3:31.87). And the thing is, as evidence by this failed test, he was still taking EPO as a reverted 3:32 man, but obviously dialled back (but not enough evidently).
Kiprop likely isn't even an elite, just a very good responder. Though as EPO clearly gives you at least a 6 second advantage over 1500, it really is impossible to know who and who isn't elite these days, let alone the world's best.
Something that makes me even more likely to stop by is talking about me. I actually don't mind the facts and statistics. In fact, I think he should provide more facts, with balance, as he usually provides half of them on one side. For example, he will never say: - the authors of the Tubingen survey wrote "we would estimate a 29%-34% prevalence of past-year doping (at the WCh 2011)". - this survey combines sprints, field, and distance events, as well as men and women together into one number. Not sure how he gets what "Seppelt showed". The leaked blood database showed suspicious values (many samples collected under conditions known to increase the rate of false positives), which could mean "cheat" as well as "trained at altitude". Based on the known facts, this statement is equally true: "Seppelt showed that medal winners were more likely to train at altitude than the also-rans." Looking at the word "majority": - According to the Tubingen survey, the authors estimated that as many as 66%-71% of the WCh 2011 athletes did not dope in the past year - Seppelt "showed" 6 out of 7 (86%) athletes never having "suspicious" blood values - Seppelt "showed" that 2 out of 3 (67%) medals were won by (??%) athletes never having "suspicious" blood values Just some more facts and statistics from the exact same data and sources.
Everyone's looking for an edge wrote:
casual obsever wrote:
A) The Tübingen/Harvard study says that 44% (likely underestimated, according to the authors) were drug cheats at the World Championships in 2011.
B) Seppelt showed that medal winners were more likely to cheat than the also-rans.
A+B: the majority of winners dope.
Better quit providing facts & statistics...rekrunner is likely to stop by and contradict. ?
Love your fake science for assigning the impacts of various drugs. Very entertaining!
How does one even know that the concept "good responder" makes sense???? Are there studies showing significant
differences in athletes who are taking EPO???
Interesting. Which reports "directly say so"? Nice stories. But: - "suspicious blood values" is not the same as "likely to cheat" - 1 out of 7 athletes had suspicious blood values, compared to - 1 out of 3 "medals won" (not "medal winners") by (1 out of ??) athletes with suspicious blood values We can't do the math with different units.
casual obsever wrote:
Well, that's all part of Seppelt's 2014/2015 stories.
Some reports directly say so, and you can do the math yourself from the data.
Overall 1 of 7 had suspicious blood values, and 1/3 of the medal winners.
So, medal winners are more than twice as suspicious.
I'm sure it looks that way from where you're standing.
Coevett wrote:
There's some real crazies on this board, but Rekrunner might just be the nuttiest.
Bad Wigins wrote:
TrackCoach wrote:
Btw, that Rio final was a perfect setup for Kiprop, having the fastest 400 and 800 PR in the field and notwithstanding a 3:26x 1500m PR. Kiprop only had to run hard for 600m; it's crazy how he tied up in the end.
He didn't tie up, or at least not unintentionally.
As I was saying through that whole olympics, east Africa was collectively taking a dive. Nike is corrupt enough to do that to get American medals. Possibly the sub-2 thing was payment from Kipchoge for sparing him.
See a few years ago this kind of post would have been totally dismissed as conspiracy. Now we start to realise that corruption and deceit is just part of the sport due to money and power. Slightly off topic but this has infiltrated every facet of our society; education, science, politics, history and of course sport. Sad but I hope this will open some of your eyes to what is going on in more than just athletics.
yyy wrote:
How does one even know that the concept "good responder" makes sense???? Are there studies showing significant
differences in athletes who are taking EPO???
A specific dose of Epo on one kidney failure patient has a completely different result on another. So, it makes sense that one athlete would have a greater (or lesser) response to a specific dose when compared to another.
yyy wrote:
How does one even know that the concept "good responder" makes sense???? Are there studies showing significant
differences in athletes who are taking EPO???
Anecdotes from cycling.
In the go-go era of Armstrong, Riis, Pantani etc., LOTS more athletes were using EPO, but not getting quite the bang out of it like an Armstrong or Riis, or Pantani.
That would be a real tragedy, if the irregularly prematurely leaked result was really the result of local Kenyan corruption and extortion and a tampered sample. If so, there is no way to undo the permanent damage to his reputation.
gathernomoss wrote:
The plot thickens :
http://www.runblogrun.com/2018/05/olympic-1500m-champion-asbel-kiprops-statement-regarding-alleged-positive-doping-test.htmlI might be naive but it appears there are reasons to doubt the process surrounding this positive test...
But we don't know who were the best without EPO!!!! No controlled experiment!!
rekrunner wrote:
That would be a real tragedy, if the irregularly prematurely leaked result was really the result of local Kenyan corruption and extortion and a tampered sample. If so, there is no way to undo the permanent damage to his reputation.
gathernomoss wrote:
The plot thickens :
http://www.runblogrun.com/2018/05/olympic-1500m-champion-asbel-kiprops-statement-regarding-alleged-positive-doping-test.htmlI might be naive but it appears there are reasons to doubt the process surrounding this positive test...
To a non crazy person, his excuse sounds like the ramblings of a child who has done something naughty and is trying to get out of it despite being caught red handed.