Lydiard Imitations

rekrunner wrote:

If "aerobic first" represents a stupidity in your opinion:

1) What is the rationale for spending six months of "aerobic first" training with Joe, a proven athlete who was out of form, before moving on to later phases? Is that too long? Hadd finished that series by saying that after six months, they were only half way there.

I'll be interested to see what Antonio says, but Joe wanted to run a marathon. So his two tempo runs per week were fairly race-specific training. It might be different for a 1500 runner?

That's a good point, which I've already given some thought. Hadd defined the workouts based on time and HR, as a proxy for effort, ignoring distance and pace. He gave an upper ceiling of effort, with the idea of pushing up "the threshold" from underneath.If I understood correctly, modern methodologies define everything with respect to race pace (general, special, or specific), and there are elements like progression, extending volume, and increasing intensity, with each subsequent phase.Specifiying by HR is also a kind of progression, as paces will get faster as you get fitter, but this is something based on effort rather than pace.Maybe it's a good supplemental question. If six months of "Hadd's Phase 1" is perfect for Joe, in both modern and outdated contexts, what would change if he were trying to break 4:00 for 1500m (like Eddy Lee), after a similar extended break from training?Antonio, would your answer be different for the 1500m runner, than for "Joe"? Like "eurodonkey" (aka "lazy mathematical runner"), I'm interested to hear your opinion.

eurodonkey wrote:

I'll be interested to see what Antonio says, but Joe wanted to run a marathon. So his two tempo runs per week were fairly race-specific training. It might be different for a 1500 runner?

Thanks to ask me this question.

I don´t want to replace dear John Hadd, but in reality it´s a my own original idea and it´s me that challenge him to open one thread, and both post, to what´s the result of our email both share and he did agree and the result is the thread "2 kind of runners". But we did continue to debate many other training subjects out of our LR.com posts. John did ask me to be the first name on that thread, therefore it´s Antonio Cabral & John Hadd and not John Hadd & Antonio Cabral "2 kind..." because he says that i´m the one that sdid contribute more for that thread than him.

Therefore all that i say on this post about John it´s write by John in our emails share.

John did accept to post in a shared thread because he did think that i´m the world´s personal that better understand his training, as well as every training method, namely the Lydiard one.

When we post what we post about the "2 kind of runners" that´s based in my training experience as coach and methodology training knowledge and John´s coach and physiology knowledge, and the main issue it´s the need of different kind of training relate to different training types; that we typify as 2 types the FT and the ST runner but 2 types just as a typification and simplicity.

Then the Lydiard community on this board Mr. Keshall, HRE, Nobby and some others from the Lydiard community did think strange that John Hadd did post that kind of training approach and the way we did it.

It´s not by chance that in a self-defense strategy, soon after our thread, we might read the Lydiardists to comment and debate about that out thread subject. Strange goes to curiosity, and it´s when right after out thread we have the first symptoms of some agitation among the Lydiardists. They would had ask, but John Hadd is the same John Hadd that did says that "basically my training is the Lydiard one" (not literal, but it´s the idea). If you read the first intreview made by Mr.Keshall right after out thread it´s done, you may read the ever first life interview question any Lydiardist did ask about the fiber type question. Do you think it´s by change. Of course it doesn´t. Besides the question is out of the interview context, we might understand that from the moment on we did the 2 kind of runner´s thread he is in trouble and very curious to know John´s ideas, because at that moment Keshall he taught that John was the leader of the main thread issue and i was just did one minor contribution", when it´s the opposite, and also on that early time some of them didn´t knew that the main posts to debate Lydiard it were mine as anonymous.

The Lydiard and Keshall curiosity and interest was great. They had been taught "here is one question that no one of US the Lydiard ones doesn´t know how to deny with Lydiard training.

At this moment Mr. Keshall did email John Hadd and ask him one interview as he did with me later on.Kershall´s afraid that John Hadd would say something out of the Lydiard track is so real, despite what John said that "basically my training is the Lydiard one", but who is not confident be afraid. With the interest to interview John goes also the condition that Keshall just accepts to interview John if John didn´t comment on Lydiard ! Very tricky ! What to fear and why to limit if he taught that John was basically one Lydiard. Those who Raren´t secure they need to be partial and catch ten true, and make censorship, it´s what Mr. Keshall wanted to do with John. John didn´t accept.

I have myself the Keshall John email change.

See how are the Lydiard ones. John was very upset that someone ask him to talk about training with the confine and censorship that´s not be authorize to talk about Lydiard. Look, John could talk about everything related with training, from Paavo Numi to Bekele, but not Lydiard. Eventually Mr. Keshall taught that because John said "his training is Lydiard basically" this means "I John, i´m stupid, that i don´t know what´s the reason why he doesn´t want that i talk about Lydiard.

But continuing..Then from that moment on John decides to posts as anonymous as "O" with a trema accent, because he could resist to be shoot oout with so many Lydiard stupidity and out of fair play of a few (not all).

Now, i want to ask to your question and this all that i write up to this part is that you might understand.

John and me, we both do agree in many training aspects. However he and i we are (he was) a very democratic and we could accept that each one of us did different training. In our both relationship, we did learn from one each other and we grew up as coaches with our debate. The best things i did learn from him is in disagreement. His training did change quite a lot after he knew me and knew my training concepts. This is something absurd to the Lydiardist, that he can change his training by those that do disagree with them. It´s not by change that HRE says to that famous italian coach "I willn´t (You willn´t) change my opinion) (not literal but it´s the main idea). Typical from the Lydiardist. Nothing can make me thing different.

John, contrary to what some of you might think, he did use fast pace (LT and LTp continuous runs, as well, as interval training and anaerobic training during his PHASE I to some runners he did coach. You know, when he did posts about Joe training - he talks about the aerobic phase - because Joe comes from inactivity, and also Joe´s goal target it´s the marathon. But i don´t want deny that John did stresses more on a Phase I - with aerobic training almost exclusively that i don´t in most of the cases.

However, i got emails from John that he says that in some cases, he uses anaerobic training and interval training since the very first day that he starts to train one particular runner.

Resuming. It´s true that John main training distance approach tends to be is "aerobic first" but i don´t agree with him on this training aspect. But his main training is very different than the Lydiard one.

John, at one moment wanted to write one book about his training. But before write the book he wanted to post on LRC with about Lydiard with me, he wanted to deny the identification that some Lydiardists prended get him as a Lydiard disciple, or Lydiard based. I got our email share. Might be one day i will posts. Since John isn´t with us, i did a deep analysis if i wanted to turn on public what is yet our private email share. John it´s no more here to decide and i can´t ask him. Now it´s a my own single decision.

What i know is that John never forgive what Keshall did, to refuse that he talks about Lydiard in one interview.

When Mr. Keshall come with me with the same condition, and despite i knew about John, i did accept, i didn´t refuse. I wanted to know to what far in dishonesty and trap one Lydiardist is able to go. Now i know the result. He asks me to don ´t talk about the Lydiard subject, but i see that his comment is based in Lydiard training and some Lydiardists he lives quite a lot.

Finnaly he wants to turn me on similar to Lydiard !

Recently, when i knew that Wrtcoast is Keshall i understood John´s post as "O" and the comments he does to the Lydiard ones and to Wetcoast.

As far as I know, interval training has NO use for 400 & 800 meter runners.

I just now opened an old falling apart Run Run Run book by Fred Wilt, thinking to look for some results by N.G. Ozolin, Moscow, and coincidently opened to the exact page, 146! I highlighted that page in various combinations of orange, blue, green markers, black & red underlines, over time (long ago).

Here are some quotes from the page.

This is according to the author of the article in reference to 800m training. Note repetition training & metabolism training are the same, vs interval training & varying pace method are the same, according to terminolgy in vogue at the time.

It looks to me they were running the repetitions as fast as possible. I used to run sessions like this, but think the longer the rests, the faster the times.

rekrunner wrote:

Antonio,

I have another question for you.

I thought we might get an answer.

Antonio Cabral wrote:

some politically motivated stuff that didn't answer the question

I hope you can back those assertions up because once again there are some serious accusations made by yourself.

I use it though. Also i found this about Kratochvilova which is pretty interesting bearing in mind she was being trained only up to 400m intentionally.

Yep the crazy b@stards.

I guess of minimalist training the more specific the pace of the training the better.

KRATOCHVILOVA

Smart man. Sounds like the namesake of this thread.

J.R. wrote:

As far as I know, interval training has NO use for 400 & 800 meter runners.

gypsy wrote:I use it though. Also i found this about Kratochvilova which is pretty interesting bearing in mind she was being trained only up to 400m intentionally.

I see no interval training from Kratochvilova that you posted. If you feel there was interval training, please let me know which session you meant. I see much repetition (metabolism) training, but no interval training.

Maybe we have a difference in the definition of interval training!

gypsy wrote:

In Kratochvilova's opinion, You cant get WR in the situation like this, Yopu need long period of training and nonracong as well as the rest and be fresh.

Yes! I agree with this. It is the same you can get the WR with Kratochvilova (long rest repetition/metabolism) training, but NOT from interval training. It is the same thing, not enough speed, not intense enough, recoveries too short.

gypsy wrote:

KRATOCHVILOVA

15 brisk 300-meter intervals of 47 seconds each, with 100 meter trots in between

Yes, this could be interval training, depending on intensity and recovery. Gershler was very specific about the work periods not being too strenuous, and the rest periods being just enough for recovery of the heart.

Interval training is training for the heart, according to Gershler.

Repetition training is training of the metabolism, not the heart. The metabolism is most important for 800m runners.

In any case, the terms don't matter. It is the training that matters.

How about some Igloi in this brew?

J.R. wrote:

Maybe we have a difference in the definition of interval training!

Probably. I see 'all' standardised work/rest training done as this training, with a repetition (the work aspect) an interval (the rest aspect), so to call one type of session interval and another as repetitions does confuse me.

How do you define them?

I was part of Hadd's private online training group since 2003, which has miraculously remained hidden from view for close to a decade.

We have thousands of Hadd's posts archived, but we vowed to keep the contents secret, since Hadd cherished his privacy. And none of us want to come under the same microscope as "Joe."

But Hadd never had a problem with us spreading his ideas. In that light, I see a few common misconceptions about Phase I.

First, the long version of Phase I, as it's described in the mega-thread, is, by and large, a one-time event.

After Phase I, you would generally drop down and race shorter distances, with more intense and race specific workouts. Then... you might do a 8-12 week block of marathon training, culminating in a fall marathon. After a few down weeks, you might pick up the 3k/5k/10k training. And so on... I don't think a single Hadd coached runner in our group ever repeated the long form version of Phase I. In fact, to our group, Hadd wrote:

"I would agree with this in someone who has gone through a solid Phase I ... base training is not something you have to revisit often if you get it right first time."

***

Second, Phase I evolved from the 2002/2003 version to include more speed work. Here is some clarification, which Hadd wrote in 2008:

I had created the 200/200 workout long ago to maintain touch with some element of speed while in Phase I. And as long as someone does not overstay their welcome in Phase I, that workout does a satisfactory job. It works especially well when someone has come in to Phase I from a strong interval background, elements of which stay with them during their ~3 month stay in Phase I (combined with 200-200 work).

However, as we have seen, some folks (esp ST) can lose complete touch with their ability to downshift a coupla gears, and find themselves in "ultramarathoner hell" where they can go round the race route two or three times but not get quicker.

Over the years I have tried a number of things, and had settled on 200-200 as a regular workout just to touch base. But I never liked giving up a whole evening to have to do so. We have always started all workouts with 6-8 laps wup + stretches + 3-5x100m strides. The more-ST I usually let run the 100s "quick" and have 60 secs standstill recovery (to let their anaerobic system recover), while the more-FT I get them to jog 100m recovery (bend) in 45s.

This summer I have expanded the amount of strides to 10x100 and made the recovery jogs mandatory (almost always 45s), and I have found that other (slower) paces, everything from 3k-HM are just feeling "easier" for most runners.

So that this extended wup does not detract from the main session, I have restricted the 100m to "1500m" pace. See below how to estimate it from Horwill's Theory (in reverse). The pace never feels quick and 45s is proving to be plenty recovery. The strides are not compromising the workouts. Therefore I recommend them to everyone on here.

Before EVERY work session: After your easy warm up jog and stretching and before you begin your session, run 10 x 100m-100m. Aim for ~1500m pace on the "fast" and float ~45 secs (but don't walk).

Then walk around 3-4 mins (drink/toilet, etc) and begin your workout. We have found this session does not compromise the workout ... but don't overestimate the 100m fast, knock 4 secs off a known performance for every half distance (Horwill's theory in reverse).

Like this:

Known 10k 1:30/lap (37:30 10k time)

Est 5k = 1:30-4 secs/lap = 1:26/lap

Est 3k = 1:26-4 secs/lap = 1:22/lap

Est 1500m = 1:22-4 secs = 1:18/lap (4:52 1500 time)

Therefore run 10 x 100 in 1:18 / 4 = ~19.5s with ~45s 100m float NOT FASTER.

We have found that when doing this twice per week (before track workouts), all other training paces come easier. Positive results can show up within 3-4 weeks. I welcome all feedback.

This plugs a hole I always felt existed in Phase I ... that we went too long ignoring certain fibres and then had to work on getting them back with the later beneficial addition of 200-200 (as you note).

Hi, i'm wondering what a 200-200 session involved

The 200-200 session is:

13 x 200 (5k pace) / 200 float (15-20 seconds slower than the fast 200)

So... if your 5k pace is 80/lap, you would run 13 x 200 in 40 seconds with 200 jog/float recovery in 55-60 seconds.

cheers

so the 100s were a little quicker than this 200 faster pace. Was there anything faster than that for this type of session?

Also i'm wondering what was done in those first 3 months of phase I

Bill Baillie also kept sessions of 200s in his training most of the time, even in the base phase.

200 in base phase, its another variant of Lydiard training.

Peter Coe, he also did Lydiard training, nothing that the fantastic HRE didnt try himself.

Juantorena, also Lydiard training, remember sometimes he runs 15km, that means its Lydiard.

Kenyans, everyone its Lydiard.

Europeans: its Lydiard.

HRE the great master who successfully applied the Lydiard method on himself, achieving great prs that noone else on this board can get close to. He knows it all. He knows the master. He tried it all. He is so smart he can understand the Lydiard training of every other training.

Thanks for post and reveal one piece of Hadd´s training.

If you take a look to early John Hadd´s training (before 2008) to late training (after 2008) you will see some changes eventually, and i´m the responsible and I got some credit for part of that change. I did some vital information that John did analise and that merged into his own method by my direct influence. I say this because he said me so, and now that some of you did post about his training advice I see I didn´t lie about my influence.

For instance, the frequency that John´s prescribes interval training, fast one with very short active intervals during the aerobic build-up, that we might read on your post, it´s my influence either.

This is the reason why I like John. He wasn´t the kind of crystallized coach out of training dynamics that did learn something long ago and sees training as in temporal . He told me that same people doesn´t want to change because they don´t want to confess that what they were coach after many decades it´s not as good as they did imagine. Some others they don´t want to change for profitable reasons, reasons of financial interest. What they will say to past runners when they will say that the training they did prescribe it´s not as good as the training they knew recently. What would think the read of one book of training when they would realize that the coach author actually thinks differently to what he wrote on that book. Imagine one Lydiardist coach the writes one book about Lydiard. What he will say, if later, on a conference or a seminar he will confess that he doesn´t think that what he wrote is the best training ? !

The person that for one reason or another is deeply connect with Lydiard, confined to be Lydiard adept, willn´t confess that he did change quite a while from Lydiard original training. Commercial reasons, etc.

But I and John we weren´t afraid to accept the disagreement and the difference, and I guess we did a fruitful cooperation, and I learned from him and he learned from me, while we keep both training independence and we weren´t afraid to be different or see the same training issue different.

Its all Lydiard wrote:

200 in base phase, its another variant of Lydiard training.

Peter Coe, he also did Lydiard training, nothing that the fantastic HRE didnt try himself.

Juantorena, also Lydiard training, remember sometimes he runs 15km, that means its Lydiard.

Kenyans, everyone its Lydiard.

Europeans: its Lydiard.

HRE the great master who successfully applied the Lydiard method on himself, achieving great prs that noone else on this board can get close to. He knows it all. He knows the master. He tried it all. He is so smart he can understand the Lydiard training of every other training.

Absolutely. I subscribe your post 100%.

Don´t forget the hidden reason why we are all Lydiard runners eventually. If you lace the shoe a certain way, it´s the first step to you be one Lydiard runner.