I grew up with gender dysphoria and my PRs as a Junior in HS was 400m 51 seconds, 800m 2:02. I cannot relate to runners who take hormone to become slower. That to me means they aren't athletes after all.
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Lenny Leonard wrote:
Just stop. Let the girl run. If you disapprove of her running, it has nothing to do with fairness or a "slippery slope" or being consistent with enforcing "cheating." It's because you think transgender people are liars, insane, or have ill-intent to deprive women the opportunity to win races. You hate them, so you make up these reasons that don't hold water to keep them out.
Exactly what I was referring to about the facts and law not being on your side, so "pound the table." Every argument against your position you dismiss and decide the opponents must just HATE HATE HATE trans people. "BIGOTS! TRANSPHOBES! (AND PROBABLY RACIST TOO, WHY NOT)!"
I'd say I'm quite sympathetic to them actually, because I'm certain I've experienced what they insist is "gender dysphoria" before. I just recognized that I'd be much, much better off admitting that I'm a guy and will never not be a guy, and dealing with any odd mental gender stuff as it arises, rather than embracing it and spending a lifetime on hormones and going under the knife repeatedly to turn myself into something that sort looks female, but ain't. I may come off a bit tough love sometimes because I really don't think trans people are "really" able to change their gender in a meaningful way. And as to the issue at hand here, I certainly wouldn't take any joy in taking a spot in a women's event. That Soren and others don't see an issue with doing that is a very real problem in my view, and goes beyond any sympathy I have for people's strange intrusive feelings about their own gender. At that point they are knowingly committing a arrogant and wrongful act.
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Lenny Leonard wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
No, you keep missing the point. If you allow any one kind of unfairness you have no argument against any other. Unfairness is only called cheating when it is disapproved of. If males competing as females is disapproved of that is cheating, too. Which it is.
It's unfair that some athletes train at altitude and others don't. They should all have access to it or not.
It's unfair that some athletes have better coaches. They should all have the same coach.
It's unfair that some athletes have strength and conditioning coaches as well as recovery resources to help them better prevent and return from injuries. Everyone should get the same.
It's unfair that some athletes are paid enough that they do not need any secondary source of income that affects what they do the other 20 hours a day when they are not running. Every runner should be fully supported financially.
It's unfair that some athletes have parents who were both genetically set up for performance in endurance athletics. All athletes should have the same parents.
Do you allow any of this unfairness? Then by your logic, I should be able to wear rocket-powered skates because any ounce of unfairness means there are no rules.
Just stop. Let the girl run. If you disapprove of her running, it has nothing to do with fairness or a "slippery slope" or being consistent with enforcing "cheating." It's because you think transgender people are liars, insane, or have ill-intent to deprive women the opportunity to win races. You hate them, so you make up these reasons that don't hold water to keep them out.
Do we have 2 categories at races for altitude vs. non-altitude?
Do we have 2 categories at races for well-coached vs. poorly coached?
Do we have 2 categories at races for having a strength coach vs. not?
Do we have 2 categories at races for pro vs. amateur?
Do we have 2 categories based on one's genetic abilities?
Do we have 2 categories at races based on biological sex?
I know it may be tough for you, but can you spot the difference?
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Cooper's Bridge wrote:
Do we have 2 categories at races for altitude vs. non-altitude?
Do we have 2 categories at races for well-coached vs. poorly coached?
Do we have 2 categories at races for having a strength coach vs. not?
Do we have 2 categories at races for pro vs. amateur?
Do we have 2 categories based on one's genetic abilities?
Do we have 2 categories at races based on biological sex?
I know it may be tough for you, but can you spot the difference?
I've already addressed this so many times in this thread and others.
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Crascrenbon wrote:
I'd say I'm quite sympathetic to them actually, because I'm certain I've experienced what they insist is "gender dysphoria" before. I just recognized that I'd be much, much better off admitting that I'm a guy and will never not be a guy, and dealing with any odd mental gender stuff as it arises, rather than embracing it and spending a lifetime on hormones and going under the knife repeatedly to turn myself into something that sort looks female, but ain't. I may come off a bit tough love sometimes because I really don't think trans people are "really" able to change their gender in a meaningful way. And as to the issue at hand here, I certainly wouldn't take any joy in taking a spot in a women's event. That Soren and others don't see an issue with doing that is a very real problem in my view, and goes beyond any sympathy I have for people's strange intrusive feelings about their own gender. At that point they are knowingly committing a arrogant and wrongful act.
Why are you "certain" that you have experienced gender dysphoria? Did you consult any medical professional about it, and what do they say?
Is it possible what you experienced is something similar to, but different from gender dysphoria?
About Soren "taking a spot" in a women's event, that it make any difference whether Soren finishes 1st., 10th, 100th, or DFL? Does it make any difference whether Soren's teammates or opponents accept Soren or not? (In this case, at least a few, and probably more opponents do not accept Soren. We don't know anything about teammates.)
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Lenny Leonard wrote:
Cooper's Bridge wrote:
Do we have 2 categories at races for altitude vs. non-altitude?
Do we have 2 categories at races for well-coached vs. poorly coached?
Do we have 2 categories at races for having a strength coach vs. not?
Do we have 2 categories at races for pro vs. amateur?
Do we have 2 categories based on one's genetic abilities?
Do we have 2 categories at races based on biological sex?
I know it may be tough for you, but can you spot the difference?
I've already addressed this so many times in this thread and others.
Please, enlighten us. Because it seems to me like being a boy in a girls' race is cheating, but I have never seen a race with categories based on coaching or altitude.
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Well this topic in Maine at least has taken a back seat. A mass shooting has taken place in the city of lewiston, with 16 people reportedly dead with additional wounded. All high school sports have been postponed including the state meet for this weekend.
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OFOOS wrote:
Lenny Leonard wrote:
I've already addressed this so many times in this thread and others.
Please, enlighten us. Because it seems to me like being a boy in a girls' race is cheating, but I have never seen a race with categories based on coaching or altitude.
Anyone with an ounce of good faithness knows that this has been addressed many times: that’s a girl, not a boy. Those are the rules of engagement in the running world as codified by its sole global regulatory body.
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It doesn't take much courage to be against transwomen in female sports, especially if one recognizes that transwomen experience real problems as men. I don't think LetsRun opinions are very different than the general population. In a university gender studies department? Yes? But there is very little pushback othewise.
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tlm1959 wrote:
It doesn't take much courage to be against transwomen in female sports, especially if one recognizes that transwomen experience real problems as men. I don't think LetsRun opinions are very different than the general population. In a university gender studies department? Yes? But there is very little pushback othewise.
Quote my words verbatim if you are responding to me. Otherwise I assume you don’t disagree with anything I actually said.
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Wise Old Man wrote:
jkjkjjjjlll wrote:
Who cares and why is that relevant? In William's race she missed out on a medal place. Whether it is competitive with your daughter's region or not is beside the point.
Girls deserve fair sport, and this young woman has a right to speak out about it. They shouldn't just suck it up because their region is slower overall, that's nutty and a bad message for young women.
Ms Williams had to “run for 2nd” in this race. So what? In the CA southern section she would be running for 100th against girls. Would she feel better in that scenario? The real lesson of all this is being missed in the midst of a lot of trans bashing.
Following your logic, why have sex-based divisions at all? Just put boys and girls together, let 'em compete in one race. Girls can't crack the top 25 of these races? Suck it up, buttercups.
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Why bother wrote:
Following your logic, why have sex-based divisions at all? Just put boys and girls together, let 'em compete in one race. Girls can't crack the top 25 of these races? Suck it up, buttercups.
So go back to pre-Title IX? That’s the TERF solution?
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Lenny Leonard wrote:
Why bother wrote:
Following your logic, why have sex-based divisions at all? Just put boys and girls together, let 'em compete in one race. Girls can't crack the top 25 of these races? Suck it up, buttercups.
So go back to pre-Title IX? That’s the TERF solution?
Lenny - based on your posts here, that would be the correct solution. Just run everyone together. We already have altitude, non-altitude; better coaches, worse coaches; genetically gifted, not gifted.
Male physiology, female physiology? Whatever. Because who can really separate out the differences amongst competitors, right?
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tlm1959 wrote:
It doesn't take much courage to be against transwomen in female sports, especially if one recognizes that transwomen experience real problems as men. I don't think LetsRun opinions are very different than the general population. In a university gender studies department? Yes? But there is very little pushback othewise.
People aren’t opposed to allowing trans athletes in sports. People are simply opposed to biologic males competing against biologic females. A trans athlete has always been allowed to compete against athletes of their same biology and always will be (unless they are doped to the gills). Sports are divided along biological lines, not ideological lines.
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