Pappy no kidding reading your comment about AJ’s training reminded me of John Walker. The great Kiwi miler was Lydiard-based in his training but he modified it to include mile repeats during the base phase. Another one of the all-time greats, Steve Ovett, liked to include some 200s.
Smoove wrote:
One note on Daniels: he has no place for 10k pace outside of a progression run.
Maybe I’m pushing too hard but lot of my tempo work - esp the shorter stuff like mile repeats - ends up around 10k pace.
Maybe for the old Angry Johnny it was close to 10k pace. But not for Rupp-beating Angry Johnny with the new PR.
Good story, Pappy. That is a one big rat. Let me know what happens.
AJ - did your fat ass start running again? Bout time. I thot I was gonna just run away with the win. Now it’s gonna be tougher (but still easy).
runrincerepeat wrote:
AJ - did your fat ass start running again? Bout time. I thot I was gonna just run away with the win. Now it’s gonna be tougher (but still easy).
Yep. Back in the saddle. Have run 5 of the last 6 days. Calves still blown from doing 400s Tuesday so I’m hobbling around a bit and feeling like my old/normal self.
RRR knows AJ. And respects AJ ( esp after the epic Boston race)
But don’t think for a minute I’m not gonna get my Houston race bib. Turn it sideways.
And shove it right up your candy ass.
Can you smelllllllll what Triple R is cooking.
I can smell the broccoli from here. You smell that ribeye?
too hot wrote:
Gordon Tremeshko wrote:
Ok. Agreed. Starting from scratch, still have some open questions.
Keep in mind that by jogging, you are not gaining an aerobic benefit.You shouldn't have to jog in order to combat daily or frequent "stiffness" if you are running at the correct level of effort and you are increasing your mileage in controlled fashion.
So what is jogging? That is hard to say when speaking for someone else. I know when I am jogging because I can easily carry on a conversation with someone, I am breathing very relaxed, and I am under no stress at all.
Ok. I think this a logical point to end this discussion then. I totally disagree that there is no aerobic benefit to running at a pace at which you could carry on a conversation, and I imagine I won't be able to convince you otherwise.
I obviously can't point you to the page in Run to the Top you need today, but I'll go back to DB's PDF link, because those words were written by Gilmour and I trust he knew Lydiard pretty well...
"Ideally, you should always be able to maintain a conversation while you are running aerobically."
If you want me to give you Run to the Top page numbers feel free to send me your copy and I'll send it back when I'm done.
DietBacon wrote:
https://web.archive.org/web/20170926155309/http://www.bunnhill.com/BobHodge/Special/LydiardInterpreted.htm
Molvar’s template is ok (apart from the whole 9 weeks thing) but try to avoid the copy paste syndrome.
Lydiard had very few rules, the rest is driven by how your body is responding to the training.
I say, for you, start at 40mpw or whatever you have been averaging and holding comfortably over the last month.
Make sure you have a long run and a medium long run built into each week. Make sure you run varying distances at varying effort levels except for the two extremes: jogging and below your anaerobic threshold.
The rate of progression and your peak during this upcoming base period are TBD. Obviously, avoid extremes like jumping from 40mpw to 60mpw in one swoop.
I really want to help even if there are still some doubters out there.
Huge follower of this thread, but was away for six weeks or so after Boston and work got crazy.
Smoove, can you point me to where you did post your training for Chicago? Interested to see adjustments made.
Gordon I’m trying to work with you here but I don’t detect a change in tone.
You can’t pull one sentence out of context (much less from a secondary source) and claim to have ended a discussion.
Did you know that even in original Run to the Top there is a chapter entitled “The Myth of Middle Age” I believe where Lydiard/Gilmour is addressing sedentary office workers?
I can maintain a conversation at half marathon pace but that doesn’t mean I am super relaxed doing so.
We need to use our common sense here. Jogging is very relaxed running. I’m thankful that a troll brought up the term “regeneration” earlier because that’s exactly what we’re talking about. At that pace, it’s more of a shakeout or recovery run and there is no aerobic benefit. Your heart rate simply doesn’t get up high enough to produce aerobic adaptations.
If I remember correctly, what hurt Smoove was him needing to hit a certain amount of mileage in a week while tapering for his race. Did something ridiculous like running 20 miles a day for 3 days earlier in the week so he could hit some mileage number while still being able to "taper."
Too hot, what is your cut off for when you are no longer gaining aerobic benefit? It seems like it might be higher than what Gordon, myself and others consider valuable.
For me, I'd say it is around 60% max HR, which would put me around HR 120. Canova's regeneration runs are based off percent of race pace, and the quick end of that would be around 8:10 or 8:20 a mile for me. At those paces I'm usually around HR 130.
I am definitely working aerobically at those efforts, but I certainly don't run at them all the time. Not even most of the time. But they strike me as the easy effort that Lydiard said would be fine, but would just take a really, really long time to gain benefits from.
As a side note, some of the biggest aerobic monsters I've ever known were from my years living in Arizona trying to hang with dudes who primarily spent their time hiking. Lots and lots of hours in the mountains and canyons just cruising around, but they could go forever. They could jump into long trail runs or on a mountain bike and still crush it. Sure, they didn't have the efficiency/economy/practice to run a fast 10k, but the foundation for it was definitely there.
Consistency
It’s a tricky thing to nail down your aerobic threshold. I don’t find HR monitors to be very reliable and neither did Lydiard. Canova’s percentages of race pace, as I alluded to earlier, paint with too broad a stroke in my opinion.
Lydiard would never have given you a specific answer to your question. Lydiard’s 1/4 effort is the slow end of the best aerobic pace spectrum and that is something that each runner has to find for themselves.
Subjectively, I have tried to provide examples of internal feedback like that feeling you could go on forever at that pace, nominal breathing, and stride shortening/ shuffling.
I'm officially putting myself on the threads IR. Going to see the foot specialist this week. No running for a bit. I guess it's biking and elliptical?
No, I don't think the Gilmour quote is what ends the discussion. There are hundreds of sources that validate the fact that jogging and running a minute or 2 slower than marathon pace have huge aerobic benefits. What ends the conversation for me is that you deny this fundamental truth in favor of "harder is better." We seem to be on the same page with most other aspects. If we've reached that point of clarity, I think it's just time to agree to disagree and move on.
I hold no animosity against you. I just disagree with you and that's ok. Tone is hard to get across by text sometimes when disagreeing. Would love to have a beer and chat.
What I have to add is that I did Hadd for a while, and ended up running a some of miles in the 8:30-9:00 range, while I was in 38-40 min 10k shape.
I improved a lot while doing that, although I can't know if that's what did it, since I also had some mileage around 7:10-8:00, but no faster than that. It was also the first time I was running consistently, so I had never ever tried to develop myself aerobically really, and that's probably a factor.
I went from 42 min 10k to 36:30 without running under 7:00/mi, although some of that was weight loss too, not just aerobic development.
First lets not turn this into the East African PEDs thread.
Second, I like to think I know a lot about Lydiard. I may know more than some but truly there is a lot I don't know. The biggest reason/problem I have always had with Lydiard and I think everyone has is that most descriptions were written down in very ambiguous terms. The main thing I know about Lydiard is that if I said he did this. There would be multiple examples that contradict what I said.
Jogging: What is jogging? Personally, I'd say jogging is very slow and that I would get little or no aerobic benefit from it. Jogging would help flush all the crap built up in my system from harder running but not do much for me on the top end. Could it help aerobically over a very long time? Sure. Anything that makes my heart beat faster than sitting on my butt will but I am impatient and don't want to wait years to realize gains while training to run.
Too hot mentioned John Walker and mile repeats. I really never thought of a Lydiard guy doing mile repeats so I looked up some of his training. Walker was a freak. Besides all the hard workouts on Aug 6th the description has 6 mile jog in 36. That surely is not a pace I would describe jogging, Ever!
I guess my take away goes back to Lydiard coached for a long time. He coached a lot of different athletes with a lot of different strengths and weaknesses. Like all the great coaches he trained them differently. It could be very easy to be thinking of what one of his athletes did and not be close to what another did. I do believe the base phase for all his athletes was very consistent.
https://beaconhillstriders.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/John-Walker-Training-article.pdf
okay guys so i am currently averaging about 36 miles per week and have a pb of 17:04. so today i did a session on a road oval with 10feet of elevation on each rep. the session was 3[2X600m] with 1 min rest between reps and 3 mins between sets. i averaged 1:45.5 overall, what do you think i should be able to go in a 5k?(pb 17:04 3 months ago). i really want to go sub 16 by the end of the year or maybe a little over any help appreciated.