I still haven't heard a legitimate reason why Magness, Gouchers, etc. would risk their reputations by (falsely?) accusing someone of a crime. I'm really trying to see both sides of the story.
I still haven't heard a legitimate reason why Magness, Gouchers, etc. would risk their reputations by (falsely?) accusing someone of a crime. I'm really trying to see both sides of the story.
This whole thing makes me wonder about Webb and Ritz, two runners that I never wanted to think were dirty.
When Ritz first went to Salazar he got an immediate boost in performance and broke 13. This raised eyebrows but some explained it away as a byproduct of his monster base under Hudson. I accepted that at the time but now I'm not so sure. I hate to think this way but doping seem to fit with the recent revelations.
ijenns318 wrote:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-32877702Look at the 2nd video down, which describes "a runner" coached by Salazar. If you watch the video, it's almost entirely obvious that it's Cam Levins (if you've ever watched an interview of Levins talking, you can tell that it's him by the way he speaks) with maybe something that altered the audio of his voice a bit so people wouldn't know it was him.
Good on him though; I'm glad he's speaking out about this and even though he requested to remain anonymous, it's good to know that he's a good guy and actually questioned drug use. I think he should speak out about this un-anonymously because I'm like 90% sure it's Levins in the interview.
OK Sherlock, the runner in the video describes events of 2007. What was Cam Levins' association with NOP in 2007?
J.R. wrote:
Chet Manly wrote:Shouldn't they actually have some evidence rather some vague and unverifiable stories?
What you are speaking of is heresy.
Please. This is how it starts. One improbable thing leads to another which leads to another which leads to a smoking gun. Give it time, give it time. You clearly were both defending Lance until the end too eh?
rojo wrote:
[quote]fb123 wrote:
"Kara Goucher, the most prominent female runner in America," ?? I guess that's debatable. I'd go with Allyson Felix or Sanya Richards-Ross.
Ricards-Ross and Felix are sprinters - not runners.
S
Most prominent runner is definitely not Goucher. Stop the hair splitting, BBC/propublica's audience isn't making distinction between 200/400m vs longer distances. (Even the "knowledgable LRC visitor would pick Shalane or Jenny Simpson if we were to pretend that the runner/sprinter distinction was relevant.)
rojo wrote:
fb123 wrote:"Kara Goucher, the most prominent female runner in America," ?? I guess that's debatable. I'd go with Allyson Felix or Sanya Richards-Ross.
Ricards-Ross and Felix are sprinters - not runners.
William Windsor wrote:
Extremely important to recognise that Mo Farah is not accused of anything at all.
The UK laws on allegations are a lot stiffer than the US. I think you need to remember that.
andre dawson wrote:
when do the bro-jo's apologize for the rampant denials years back and the "we talked to salazar...." and feel he is clean. That Mo adrenaline story from London that got deleted a few years ago looks relevant again.
Queue ADuck in 3...2...1...
I thought I'd seen it all on the Internet until this. Our entire website has bene ripped to shreds over the years by many because we have allowed accuations against Salazar to be posted on here and now we're being accused of participating in a cover up? Unreal.
You must be new to LetsRun.
get away wrote:
J.R. wrote:What you are speaking of is heresy.
Please. This is how it starts. One improbable thing leads to another which leads to another which leads to a smoking gun. Give it time, give it time. You clearly were both defending Lance until the end too eh?
The issue with Armstrong was the other riders here admitted to doping, so since all of them were, it was logical to assume that so was Lance. In this case, the only runners saying the NOP was on steroid (not EPO mind mind you) but they in fact were not. Also, the reports were coming from the doping agencies about Lance, not BBC!
So, yeah not entirely the same story and seems like BS. If it comes out that Salazar used things after getting the OK or TUEs from WADA/USADA and there is no suspension b/c it is shady not illegal, this wouldn't shock me. It seems more like smear campaign right before USAs and World Champs. So Salazar uses more supplements/drugs that are not illegal...but a lot of these runners in all groups use altitude tents and chambers. To me honestly, that seems like it is crossing a natural to unnatural performance enhancer. This is going to turn out to be a a media/BBC driven report that goes nowhere in terms of evidence.
Almost Entirely Obvious wrote:
ijenns318 wrote:http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-32877702Look at the 2nd video down, which describes "a runner" coached by Salazar. If you watch the video, it's almost entirely obvious that it's Cam Levins (if you've ever watched an interview of Levins talking, you can tell that it's him by the way he speaks) with maybe something that altered the audio of his voice a bit so people wouldn't know it was him.
Good on him though; I'm glad he's speaking out about this and even though he requested to remain anonymous, it's good to know that he's a good guy and actually questioned drug use. I think he should speak out about this un-anonymously because I'm like 90% sure it's Levins in the interview.
OK Sherlock, the runner in the video describes events of 2007. What was Cam Levins' association with NOP in 2007?
Did you notice how for the first 4 seconds of the video it said "Actors Voice" in the lower right hand corner? 100% not Levins.
Almost Entirely Obvious wrote:
ijenns318 wrote:http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-32877702Look at the 2nd video down, which describes "a runner" coached by Salazar. If you watch the video, it's almost entirely obvious that it's Cam Levins (if you've ever watched an interview of Levins talking, you can tell that it's him by the way he speaks) with maybe something that altered the audio of his voice a bit so people wouldn't know it was him.
Good on him though; I'm glad he's speaking out about this and even though he requested to remain anonymous, it's good to know that he's a good guy and actually questioned drug use. I think he should speak out about this un-anonymously because I'm like 90% sure it's Levins in the interview.
OK Sherlock, the runner in the video describes events of 2007. What was Cam Levins' association with NOP in 2007?
This should be pretty easy though. Who was on the team and perhaps struggling in 2007 that was with the team for "several" years?
Josh Rohatinsky? Teg would make sense - he'd really want anonymity since he still competes - but I don't think he joined until 2008.
Teg was never on NOP. He's one of Jerry's boys.
LetsRun.com wrote:
Investigative reporter David Epstein, who helped expose Lance Armstong, has a new story out.
Epsetin, who used to write for Sports Illustrated but now works for Pro Publica, has teamed up the BBC program Panorama and its reporter Mark Daly. The BBC will be airing a story on doping today at at 4 pm ET.
However a web version of Epstein's report is now out. We haven't read it yet but it's entitled, "Off Track: Former Team Members Accuse Famed Coach Alberto Salazar of Breaking Drug Rules"
https://www.propublica.org/article/former-team-members-accuse-coach-alberto-salazar-of-breaking-drug-rulesIt looks like Magness is in the piece. Everyone read it and give us your thoughts.
Why are we not talking about blood doping as opposed hormones?
get away wrote:
Almost Entirely Obvious wrote:OK Sherlock, the runner in the video describes events of 2007. What was Cam Levins' association with NOP in 2007?
This should be pretty easy though. Who was on the team and perhaps struggling in 2007 that was with the team for "several" years?
Josh Rohatinsky? Teg would make sense - he'd really want anonymity since he still competes - but I don't think he joined until 2008.
Ok, after further reading ProPublica just says the runner worked with NOP for several years. That makes my vote Teg or one of Schumacher's boys before the two split. Otherwise the doctor wouldn't have said to him that "Alberto does it," which suggests he had a different coaching arrangement.
The level of resistance to reality would be astonishing were this not Letsrun.com, a perennial den of stupidity and essential nonsense. Even without the BBC film and the Epstein article, anyone should be suspicious of any Olympic medalist in any track and field event given today's athletic climate.
Anyone who believes that any of the people interviewed in the program was operating from a platform of spite or resentment is simply an unbridled moron. None of them had anything to gain by speaking frankly to Mr. Daly, and they arguably had a lot to lose. And the idea that Stiner, Magness and the Gouchers, who are hardly collaborators in the everyday world. would independently state things that together paint a cohesive portrait of rampant cheating -- doping clearly NOT limited to the use of TUE preparations -- suggests that a number of you need to consult a neurologist (not a new idea around these parts).
Wake. The hell. Up.
This is going mainstream. A lot of people who don't usually follow the sport are going to hear about this.
I am just a housewife in Kansas who knows nothing about NPO or track. This story seems to be a very big deal.
EPO is my middle name wrote:
Almost Entirely Obvious wrote:OK Sherlock, the runner in the video describes events of 2007. What was Cam Levins' association with NOP in 2007?
Did you notice how for the first 4 seconds of the video it said "Actors Voice" in the lower right hand corner? 100% not Levins.
We are in agreement.
Sherlock though is almost entirely certain that it is Levins.
rojo wrote:
we r living in a material wrld wrote:For those who don't have much time to read:
Chet Manly, the ProPublica article and other articles combined give at least 3 pieces of physical evidence to back up stories, many of which are corroborated by multiple witnesses, on the public record.
Physical Evidence:
*Alberto's check to massage therapist John Stiner, reimbursing him for shipping him "androgel"
*Magness' photos of 16 y/o Galen Rupp's hemo records showing him taking "prednisone and testosterone"
*A photo of a meds bottle purportedly given to Kara Goucher by Alberto w/ the coach's hand-written "Cytomel" on the makeshift label
For those who want to read more:
First of all, Chet, this is not a trial. To convict in a trial, you're supposed to have evidence (of course, that's not always how it goes, but anyway).
This is journalism. In journalism, a journalist talks to people, on and off the record, gathers as much physical evidence as they can (see immediately below) and then cross-checks and verifies as much as possible (such as speaking with Magness' parents and another AlSal athlete who confirmed Magness' story about Rupp's medical report). Good journalism outfits will edit out stuff that's not corroborated or relevant. In this case, there's both material evidence and a pattern of behavior coming from on-the-record testimony from a number of people who have a lot to lose from lying (Gouchers, Magness, etc), or even from telling the truth.
As outlined above, here are at least a couple examples of physical evidence that go beyond your "vauge and unverifiable stories":
1. Magness' pictures of the "prednisone and testosterone" document
2. The John Stiner Androgel receipt
3. The Goucher/Salazar "Cytomel" meds bottle
Consistent Patterns of Behavior
They also have "testimony" from many witnesses that points to a consistent pattern of illegal behavior. For example, the reported TUE manipulation. Rupp admits to using TUEs and Salazar admits to using TUEs. Well, Goucher has several stories that indicated Rupp and Salazar abuse TUEs. This "alleged" pattern of behavior is similar to other "alleged" patterns of behavior with physical evidence to back them up. Just like w/ TUEs, Rupp and Salazar admit to properly using thyroid and allergy medication and "testoboost", but there is evidence that they improperly abuse them (see Cytomel and androgel and 16 y/o med reports for physical evidence of a pattern of behavior).
Credible Witnesses?
Also, if they lacked credibility, these witnesses could all have chosen to implicate Farah. If they were just out to get Nike and Alberto and the NOP, then they would implicate the multi-gold winner. But no, none of them did. This indicates that they are sticking to events for which they have actual, legit evidence. Of course, a reasonable person (such as myself) will assume that Farah is getting "the best Nike science can offer", especially when he runs and acts like a person chock full of testosterone, and trains w/ and befriends a convicted doper in ETH or KEN (I forget, and don't have time to locate this source). Wouldn't the BBC and ProPublica love to have this evidence against Farah? You bet. But they don't, so being credible journalists, they say so.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-32877702http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-32883946https://www.propublica.org/article/former-team-members-accuse-coach-alberto-salazar-of-breaking-drug-ruleshttp://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/jun/03/mo-farah-training-camp-documentary-alleged-drug-use-alberto-salazar-^^^^^We have a winner. Post of the day so far.
Great post.
Let's just have a bit of a perspective.
First off, Kara and Adam Goucher were nike sponsored athletes (kara for 7 yrs), were extremely well compensated and didn't say one thing during those years. Now the best she can do is bring up some pretty lame anecdotes (Galen was really tired near the end of the season and then he runs a great race a few weeks later - that's absolutely overwhelming evidence - NOT. AlSal made a comment about Tyler Hamilton that I took a certain way - even more underwhelming). Then the picture of the Cytomel that AlSal "gave" Kara. That's proof of what? Shoot, the handwriting doesn't even look that close to the hand writing from the check for shipping expenses (and we all know what shipping expenses really mean). Not an expert, but play one on LRC, and notice how the "5s" aren't close, the "e's" are all in cursive on the check and all printed on bottle, etc.
Second, Magness supposedly had access to all the training info and the only "proof" he can offer is a picture "purportedly" of Rupp's chart from 2002???!!
*** Why would Magness, who worked at NOP for approx 2 yrs (2010-2012ish) not have pictures/evidence to document 2010-2012 doping. And in a much more compelling way. Are we to believe NOP kept meticulous records (I mean the picture of a "record" from 2002) and Magness had access but he couldn't come up with anything better?
*** Magness didn't say or show anything like this when he left NOP.
Basically this story repackages a lot of old speculation and adds a few new allegations with flimsy evidence and not a lot of questioning nor challenge to the supposed "evidence." And not much other than the individuals "love of sport" as to their motivations (love that at least in the case of the Gouchers, if we are to believe them, wasn't so true for 7 or so years while taking millions from nike - and remember everything was honky dory until after Kara had the baby).
There may be issues related to doping at NOP but this story doesn't advance that perspective very much IMO.
Tim Rowbury, would you still think Shannon deserved to win the race that she lost to Molly if you knew that Shannon was doped?
Mr. Magoo wrote:
The level of resistance to reality would be astonishing were this not Letsrun.com, a perennial den of stupidity and essential nonsense. Even without the BBC film and the Epstein article, anyone should be suspicious of any Olympic medalist in any track and field event given today's athletic climate.
Anyone who believes that any of the people interviewed in the program was operating from a platform of spite or resentment is simply an unbridled moron. None of them had anything to gain by speaking frankly to Mr. Daly, and they arguably had a lot to lose. And the idea that Stiner, Magness and the Gouchers, who are hardly collaborators in the everyday world. would independently state things that together paint a cohesive portrait of rampant cheating -- doping clearly NOT limited to the use of TUE preparations -- suggests that a number of you need to consult a neurologist (not a new idea around these parts).
Wake. The hell. Up.
You talking to me? Because mine is the post you responded to.
So, you talking to me? Because if you are I'm going to feel obliged to make you feel like an idiot.
You talking to me?
teggers wrote:
Teg was never on NOP. He's one of Jerry's boys.
My history may be blurred... but I thought that Jerry and his boys were in the NOP fold for a year or two before they broke away and created the OTC officially. Since then there has been the supposed bad blood between the two coaches. This could be one reason why if so. Or if I'm wrong just ignore this and lets move on to other probably candidates.
http://www.runnersworld.com/elite-runners/alberto-salazar-guides-oregon-project-truly-elite-levelhttp://www.tracktownusa.com/track.item.80/Matt-Tegenkamp-Joining-Nike-Oregon-Project-After-Olympic-Games.htmlhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nike_Oregon_ProjectKudzuRunner wrote:
"Neither Salazar nor Rupp responded to questions about the hollowed-out book containing pills."
Yeah, this is big.
This is the most damning evidence of all. The notion that rupp, who had to drop out of clown college, would ever read a book is just ludicrous. If they were delivering a video game, then maybe. But never a book.