If we are going to use Quincy as a comp, let’s also use Quincy’s relay-to-open delta. Quincy’s best relay carry is 43.9r and his best open is 44.1.
So it’s not necessarily true that 45.3r puts him over 46.
So Coop could’ve been at 45.5 last year using your comp set.
No, he couldn't. Wilson's best relay time is still effectively 44.7. It isn't as good as his best time out of the blocks. He has that time on the books. Lutkenhaus's relay time equates to 46.1. He doesn't have a faster time out of the blocks so far than 46.3.
My comparison with Wilson is mainly to show that with age prodigies the improvements are often incremental after their breakthrough. It isn't to say their times will progress at exactly the same rate. The other point which stands out is that they are each specialists in different events. So far there is nothing that shows Lutkenhaus will be a sub-45 runner. He will be doing well to take tenths of a second now off his best times. Over a second improvement is shooting for the moon - for both athletes.
That’s how that works. You can’t use him to prove your point but then ignore him as comp when it invalidates another argument.
Name all the world class 800m runners currently active with 400m PBs faster than 46.30. I will wait.
Your point is to misconstrue doubling and his improvement. People are excited by his potential to run impressive times (sub-45) and pursue exciting side quests (make a 4x400 squad).
There is not an expectation/belief that he will be better at the 400 than 800 or will be pursuing doubles unless he has a bye into events.
Further more, at Cooper’s age, he’s faster at 200m/400pretty than public much every 800m-focused runner ever. He’s probably than Juantrorena at 16 too.
So it’s highly likely he could be the fastest in every final he’s in.
True. Juantorena didn’t start running until he was around 20/21, and was a pure sprinter for several years. Cooper has never trained as a pure sprinter.
Lutkenahaus will be an 800/1500m runner, as opposed to an 800/400m runner.
More like Coe than like Juantorena.
(This assumes the training is geared in the correct way)
Is this an eyes test thing/hunch? Because there really is no fact-based rationale for it. Juantorena is a more extreme example, so I think he should be taken away from the comp. Does Cooper more resemble Brazier or Hoey? To me, if you are ignoring skin color it’s clearly the former. Not to say he won’t be good in the 1500 because most 800 guys are and he has some natural endurance. But with his split of 400/800 training that is working makes me think he is more likely to break 45 than break 3:32 let’s say,
Lutkenahaus will be an 800/1500m runner, as opposed to an 800/400m runner.
More like Coe than like Juantorena.
(This assumes the training is geared in the correct way)
Is this an eyes test thing/hunch? Because there really is no fact-based rationale for it. Juantorena is a more extreme example, so I think he should be taken away from the comp. Does Cooper more resemble Brazier or Hoey? To me, if you are ignoring skin color it’s clearly the former. Not to say he won’t be good in the 1500 because most 800 guys are and he has some natural endurance. But with his split of 400/800 training that is working makes me think he is more likely to break 45 than break 3:32 let’s say,
Cooper looks like a slightly slimmed down Tom Courtney in terms of running style. At least for now, he’s a 400/800 guys and shows little interest if any in the 1500.
Why did Korir suddenly disappear from competition? He is Kenyan after all.
i wouldnt be super surprised if he was doping, but there were plenty of guys who WERE busted for doping, including his training partner Michael Saruni who could only ever dream of making a world 400m final.
Lutkenahaus will be an 800/1500m runner, as opposed to an 800/400m runner.
More like Coe than like Juantorena.
(This assumes the training is geared in the correct way)
Is this an eyes test thing/hunch? Because there really is no fact-based rationale for it. Juantorena is a more extreme example, so I think he should be taken away from the comp. Does Cooper more resemble Brazier or Hoey? To me, if you are ignoring skin color it’s clearly the former. Not to say he won’t be good in the 1500 because most 800 guys are and he has some natural endurance. But with his split of 400/800 training that is working makes me think he is more likely to break 45 than break 3:32 let’s say,
I'd say he is very much like a Hoey; 600/800/1000 type who will eventually run well at 1500m
He can certainly run a great 400 too (he's obscenely gifted) but I do not see him as a Juantorena. Again, the training would have to be scripted in order to run well at the longer distance. For now, he's an 800 guy with range up and down.
I believe the 3:34.26 HSR is reachable if his camp is interested.
I'd say he is very much like a Hoey; 600/800/1000 type who will eventually run well at 1500m
He can certainly run a great 400 too (he's obscenely gifted) but I do not see him as a Juantorena. Again, the training would have to be scripted in order to run well at the longer distance. For now, he's an 800 guy with range up and down.
I believe the 3:34.26 HSR is reachable if his camp is interested.
There’s a big difference between Juantorena and being a more standard 400/800 guy. I think you are underestimating Lutkenhaus’ speed background, and maybe underestimating Hoeys endurance background. He was 7th in PA Cross as a senior, coached by Mahon. Cooper was 80 seconds off the win at the Carroll Invite and placed in the 50s from what I’m seeing in his PB race last year. I don’t think you run 46.3 on a double at age 16 being a 600-1000 type
Interesting. I’m rather new to the site and had never seen that story. Rough way to exit the sport. I’ll thank you for the guy who asked just in case. 👍🏻
At the last Olympics and outdoor wc 800 finals there would have been competitors faster than 46.3 over the 400. There were 800 runners in the '50s and '60s who could run 46. It isn't exceptional any more. Some would also probably be close to 21-flat over the 400 (like Courtney, Kerr and Crothers were). Lutkenhaus isn't.
But my main point is that Lutkenhaus is unlikely to be world-class over the 400 as he is over the 800. That's what "doubling" means for an athlete of his level. He is likely to remain an exceptional 800 specialist, as most over the event are. And as those in the 400 are.
Name all the world class 800m runners currently active with 400m PBs faster than 46.30. I will wait.
Your point is to misconstrue doubling and his improvement. People are excited by his potential to run impressive times (sub-45) and pursue exciting side quests (make a 4x400 squad).
There is not an expectation/belief that he will be better at the 400 than 800 or will be pursuing doubles unless he has a bye into events.
Running other events isn't "doubling". It is winning other events at that same level.
As an 800 Olympic champion Tom Courtney was running 46 flat for the 400 in 1956. So is it supposed to be fast today?
I'm not resetting the goal posts. I am showing why I don't think Lutkenhaus will be a world class runner over the 400 as well as the 800, which is what "doubling" means in his case. If he was a 1:50 runner over 800, as Wilson is, no one here would know who he is, with a 400 pr over 2 secs slower than Quincy (and Quincy has only gained a tenth of a second since he was 16. Big gains aren't guaranteed).
Juantorena doubled at both - he was Olympic 400/800 champions. That his 800 world record was later eclipsed doesn't change that. Coe did not double at both events. His best was a 45-mid relay leg. He doubled at the 800/1500 - more common.
Notice the way he avoids the fella’s point about Juantorena, and Coe. The way he falls back on Coe’s relay leg at age 24, while avoiding all the other points noted including those by others in previous posts. Cooper’s youth bothers him. He needs help.
Let’s see how he mangles Thoughtsleader’s post/question.
You have obviously not understood any of it. Juantorena successfully doubled at the 400/800. Coe didn't. He doubled the 800/1500-mile. I only mentioned his relay time to show he ran faster than 46.9. He was fast enough to be the fastest 800 runner in his era. That may be Lutkenhaus one day. But he isn't there yet.
At the last Olympics and outdoor wc 800 finals there would have been competitors faster than 46.3 over the 400. There were 800 runners in the '50s and '60s who could run 46. It isn't exceptional any more. Some would also probably be close to 21-flat over the 400 (like Courtney, Kerr and Crothers were). Lutkenhaus isn't.
But my main point is that Lutkenhaus is unlikely to be world-class over the 400 as he is over the 800. That's what "doubling" means for an athlete of his level. He is likely to remain an exceptional 800 specialist, as most over the event are. And as those in the 400 are.
You daid he will never be the fsstest over 400m in an international 800m final. You were wrong - as almost always.
From all the finalists in the global finals 2024 and 2025, Arop is the only one with a faster 400m PB then CL. Most don't have a 400m PB (they tend more to the 1500m).
It's safe to state you are wrong on also here.
How fast will CL run the 400? Most likely sub 46. Probably around 45.5 I would say.
Must top 800 runners aren't running 400s. They specialize, as most top athletes do. Very few are 1500 runners now. But I would bet quite a few are faster than 22 over the 200 - which isn't fast for an 800 runner. So far, he isn't.
But despite quibbling about that, you don't give him much more over the 400 than I would. He won't be "doubling" over the 400, which would mean he would need to run 44-low.
This post was edited 36 seconds after it was posted.
I don't understand why it's so difficult for people to ignore Armstrong. He wants responses and downvotes. If we all took a vow to not engage in any manner with his replies, he would fck off in a matter of weeks. Stop taking the bait!
I am not interested in responses but discussing the subject of the thread. You?
Reminds me of the screwball in the Clevenger thread using 30 names to keep it afloat. Different tactic but some of the same intent. You’re right: Ignore them all!
I wouldn’t be surprised if the multiple personality guy post bombong his own thread on Clevenger lands the site lands this site in a behind the lawsuit or what have you. Armstronglivs is merely trying to get as much attention as he can. It keeps him going.
Cooper will likely be capable of running mid 45 this year in the 400 if he races it at all, but 44.9 wouldn’t surprise me too much.
44.9 is faster than Rudisha ran. So how is he faster?
Name all the world class 800m runners currently active with 400m PBs faster than 46.30. I will wait.
Your point is to misconstrue doubling and his improvement. People are excited by his potential to run impressive times (sub-45) and pursue exciting side quests (make a 4x400 squad).
There is not an expectation/belief that he will be better at the 400 than 800 or will be pursuing doubles unless he has a bye into events.
Further more, at Cooper’s age, he’s faster at 200m/400pretty than public much every 800m-focused runner ever. He’s probably than Juantrorena at 16 too.
So it’s highly likely he could be the fastest in every final he’s in.
He hasn't yet run under 22 secs for the 200. Juantorena ran 20.7. A bunch of old plodders from the '50s and '60s - Tom Courtney, George Kerr and Bill Crothers - could all run 21-flat. He's nowhere near that and may never be.
No, he couldn't. Wilson's best relay time is still effectively 44.7. It isn't as good as his best time out of the blocks. He has that time on the books. Lutkenhaus's relay time equates to 46.1. He doesn't have a faster time out of the blocks so far than 46.3.
My comparison with Wilson is mainly to show that with age prodigies the improvements are often incremental after their breakthrough. It isn't to say their times will progress at exactly the same rate. The other point which stands out is that they are each specialists in different events. So far there is nothing that shows Lutkenhaus will be a sub-45 runner. He will be doing well to take tenths of a second now off his best times. Over a second improvement is shooting for the moon - for both athletes.
That’s how that works. You can’t use him to prove your point but then ignore him as comp when it invalidates another argument.
a comp is comp
It doesn't invalidate my argument. Wilson has run 44.1 out of blocks. His 43.9 relay doesn't show that a flying start is only worth .2 of a sec, it only shows it wasn't his fastest over the distance as it converts to 44.7. He has run much faster than that. Lutkenhaus's 45.3 relay leg converts to 46.1. So far he has run no faster over the distance, as his pr remains 46.3.
Wilson is finding improvements are getting harder to come by. That is typical of age prodigies. Lutkenhaus may experience the same.
This post was edited 29 seconds after it was posted.
Further more, at Cooper’s age, he’s faster at 200m/400pretty than public much every 800m-focused runner ever. He’s probably than Juantrorena at 16 too.
So it’s highly likely he could be the fastest in every final he’s in.
True. Juantorena didn’t start running until he was around 20/21, and was a pure sprinter for several years. Cooper has never trained as a pure sprinter.