Thanks for the downvote but soren is an XY for the rest of they life. That doesn't make him a girl or an XX in a women's race.
Where was that poster who said that all those who oppose transgender athletes weren’t full of hate?
This is one of your guys, right?
Hate? Which part of the two sentences in the post by "Dude's don\'t..." constitutes hate? Surely even the most extreme trans activist is not going to pretend that Soren is now XX instead of XY? Are you saying it's "hateful" to express doubt that an XY person is "a girl"? Because set aside all the emotion attached to these issues, that's not hate but a reasonable conclusion. You disagree and think that some XY people are "girls." That is your opinion and you're entitled to it, but to call an opposing yet ultimately logical viewpoint "hate" is just pure hysteria on your part -- and it is logical to decide that all XY minors are "boys" and all XX minors are "girls," even if you disagree with that sentiment. No hate involved at any point.
But that's just part and parcel of the trans cause by this point. Anything besides full-throated support is bigotry, hate, transphobia, whatever. For some reason that I can't quite put my finger on, whenever trans activists pull that kind of rhetorical move I always think of the old saw about lawyering: "If the facts are on your side, pound the facts. If the law is on your side, pound the law. If neither the facts or the law are on your side, pound the table."
. I think you could conclude that Soren running is NOT fair, but not worth enforcing.
"but not worth enforcing"
This is misogyny, whether you're intending it or not. The girls division- which exists for the sole reason to exclude male advantage- is 'not worth enforcing'? Girl's and women's sport is not there to affirm mediocre men, it is for girls and women. Period. The relative 'fairness' for each competitor within the category (i.e. Peds, age, ability, etc etc) is entirely meaningless if the category itself is broken into pieces by disciples of the church of genderology, who you are (perhaps inadvertently) cheerleading for right now.
I am not cheering for it. As I stated before, I would be pretty pissed if "Jenna" Ward became the Berlin champ and new world record holder for women. I just think we are caring too much about a HS race outcome and honestly, it is not in the children's best interest to spend so much time on it when higher level women's athletics are well protected from gender encroachment based on the current rules. If the extremists want to call this misogyny, fine, but I can assure you I would encourage the boys to chill out too and not be so focused on whether or not they come 2nd or 3rd at this level of sport and for all of the kids and parents to just take a deep breath and relax. If the very best runners want to move on to the high pressure, high stakes level of competition, they will have plenty of opportunity if they have the talent, and at this higher level trans runners are irrelevant. If people want to make out these high school races to be like NCAAs or worlds, I think that's lame. I know people will argue, well to this girl who missed out, this is HER Olympics, but it is NOT the Olympics and I think this attitude does more damage than any of the gender stuff does.
This is misogyny, whether you're intending it or not. The girls division- which exists for the sole reason to exclude male advantage- is 'not worth enforcing'? Girl's and women's sport is not there to affirm mediocre men, it is for girls and women. Period. The relative 'fairness' for each competitor within the category (i.e. Peds, age, ability, etc etc) is entirely meaningless if the category itself is broken into pieces by disciples of the church of genderology, who you are (perhaps inadvertently) cheerleading for right now.
I am not cheering for it. As I stated before, I would be pretty pissed if "Jenna" Ward became the Berlin champ and new world record holder for women. I just think we are caring too much about a HS race outcome and honestly, it is not in the children's best interest to spend so much time on it when higher level women's athletics are well protected from gender encroachment based on the current rules. If the extremists want to call this misogyny, fine, but I can assure you I would encourage the boys to chill out too and not be so focused on whether or not they come 2nd or 3rd at this level of sport and for all of the kids and parents to just take a deep breath and relax. If the very best runners want to move on to the high pressure, high stakes level of competition, they will have plenty of opportunity if they have the talent, and at this higher level trans runners are irrelevant. If people want to make out these high school races to be like NCAAs or worlds, I think that's lame. I know people will argue, well to this girl who missed out, this is HER Olympics, but it is NOT the Olympics and I think this attitude does more damage than any of the gender stuff does.
Where would you propose the line be drawn? That is, if you were in charge, what is the highest level at which "who cares, it's not worth worrying about it here" would be the rule, and what is the lowest level at which "OK, now this is serious, no XY people in the female category" would be the rule? I'm honestly curious about this. Would the line be between high school and college?
All the states that banned trans athletes do not make any distinction between those who transitioned before or after puberty.
Trans athletes who did not go through male puberty are banned by their states, and now they are suing the states.
Fair- many of those states also make gender affirming care before (and even after, not great!) 18 illegal, meh.
This is how things go in red states.
GOP politician: "You are not allowed to play in girls' sports because you have unfair advantage."
A trans athlete: "But I have been on puberty blockers. I don't have advantage."
GOP politician: "I don't care. You are still a boy. Besides, we are banning puberty blockers. Boys will be boys and girls will be girls in our great Christian state."
If the very best runners want to move on to the high pressure, high stakes level of competition, they will have plenty of opportunity if they have the talent, and at this higher level trans runners are irrelevant. If people want to make out these high school races to be like NCAAs or worlds, I think that's lame. I know people will argue, well to this girl who missed out, this is HER Olympics, but it is NOT the Olympics and I think this attitude does more damage than any of the gender stuff does.
Actually, I wish people would make the HS sports like NCAA or worlds. That's not their current agenda. Their agenda is to make HS sports MORE exclusionary than NCAA or worlds.
Fair- many of those states also make gender affirming care before (and even after, not great!) 18 illegal, meh.
This is how things go in red states.
GOP politician: "You are not allowed to play in girls' sports because you have unfair advantage."
A trans athlete: "But I have been on puberty blockers. I don't have advantage."
GOP politician: "I don't care. You are still a boy. Besides, we are banning puberty blockers. Boys will be boys and girls will be girls in our great Christian state."
Women are not men with low testosterone. Everything about the body, bone structure, muscle mass is different. Suppressing circulating testosterone doesn't eliminate the advantage. Advantages persist.
For a small example of the effects of testosterone, just look at ftmtf detransitioners and how they cannot undo the effects of T... and they don't even have androgen receptors like boys do.
I am not cheering for it. As I stated before, I would be pretty pissed if "Jenna" Ward became the Berlin champ and new world record holder for women. I just think we are caring too much about a HS race outcome and honestly, it is not in the children's best interest to spend so much time on it when higher level women's athletics are well protected from gender encroachment based on the current rules. If the extremists want to call this misogyny, fine, but I can assure you I would encourage the boys to chill out too and not be so focused on whether or not they come 2nd or 3rd at this level of sport and for all of the kids and parents to just take a deep breath and relax. If the very best runners want to move on to the high pressure, high stakes level of competition, they will have plenty of opportunity if they have the talent, and at this higher level trans runners are irrelevant. If people want to make out these high school races to be like NCAAs or worlds, I think that's lame. I know people will argue, well to this girl who missed out, this is HER Olympics, but it is NOT the Olympics and I think this attitude does more damage than any of the gender stuff does.
Where would you propose the line be drawn? That is, if you were in charge, what is the highest level at which "who cares, it's not worth worrying about it here" would be the rule, and what is the lowest level at which "OK, now this is serious, no XY people in the female category" would be the rule? I'm honestly curious about this. Would the line be between high school and college?
Anything I might say will just be shouted down and I will be accused of being a misogynist, so I'll pass. For most on this board it seems the only solution that is acceptable is a complete and total ban on XY kids every competing in the XX category from the moment that such categories are made and regardless of the circumstances. No reason to propose something other than this on this thread. Nobody is listening nor persuadable and I would rather not get yelled at through a message board.
If the very best runners want to move on to the high pressure, high stakes level of competition, they will have plenty of opportunity if they have the talent, and at this higher level trans runners are irrelevant. If people want to make out these high school races to be like NCAAs or worlds, I think that's lame. I know people will argue, well to this girl who missed out, this is HER Olympics, but it is NOT the Olympics and I think this attitude does more damage than any of the gender stuff does.
Actually, I wish people would make the HS sports like NCAA or worlds. That's not their current agenda. Their agenda is to make HS sports MORE exclusionary than NCAA or worlds.
WA’s Tanner2/12 is misguided to the extent it pressures pre-teen aspiring athletes into a now-or-never situation. HS and college inheriting those rules would be worse.
There are concerns transcending the cause of teenage sports.
Women are not men with low testosterone. Everything about the body, bone structure, muscle mass is different. Suppressing circulating testosterone doesn't eliminate the advantage. Advantages persist.
For the most part, this does not start until the onset of puberty. Any advantage that a trans athlete might have after suppressing puberty can be offset by the side effects of blockers.
What is there to say that hasn't already been said?
It's a blatantly unfair advantage and everyone including Soren and Soren's family knows that.
Haley Williams is the stunning and brave one to speak up. During the Andraya Yearwood days in CT it was suicide to speak out. Selina Soule fought off grown adults shaming and mocking her for it. Now it's getting more casual, like yeah. it's unfair. Not afraid to state it. Good for Selina. Good for Riley. They are creating space for more of this to happen. Keep it up. These girls have voices too.
You completely miss the point of my comment. It is that if unfairness doesn't matter with regard to male participation in female sports - as you and other gender ideologues argue - then there is no argument in principle against any other form of unfairness - which we usually describe as cheating. But with you guys, cheating in the form of male athletes competing against women is ok - because your politics say so. For those of us who prefer sport to be fair, your politics can go take a hike.
I get the point of your comment. I responded directly to the point of your comment.
You are equating unfairness with cheating. That is an error on your part. It's okay for sports to be unfair. It is not okay to cheat.
Cutting the course is cheating - Not okay
Being a girl who was at one time in her life a boy is unfair - but it is okay. It's not cheating.
No, you keep missing the point. If you allow any one kind of unfairness you have no argument against any other. Unfairness is only called cheating when it is disapproved of. If males competing as females is disapproved of that is cheating, too. Which it is.
You completely miss the point of my comment. It is that if unfairness doesn't matter with regard to male participation in female sports - as you and other gender ideologues argue - then there is no argument in principle against any other form of unfairness - which we usually describe as cheating. But with you guys, cheating in the form of male athletes competing against women is ok - because your politics say so. For those of us who prefer sport to be fair, your politics can go take a hike.
Doesn't anybody think we are collectively caring too much about the outcome of a high school race? American kids, both boys and girls suffer from a bunch of frustrated adults treating these meets like they are the Olympic games when they are not. Soren winning this race is simply not the same as Kelvin Kiptum declaring himself Karen Kiptum and taking Sifan Hassan's Chicago title from her. Treating these situations the same in terms of enforcing fairness and having the same outrage is doing a disservice to all of the kids running. NONE OF THEM are going to the Olympics and if any of them do have this talent, then the outcome of the outcome of this race will not matter. I would say this to the boys too if say there was some strange loophole that allowed Kiplimo to race and beat the boys winner by 4 minutes. I ask Armstronglivs how many of these kids racing in the boys or girls race are on adderall? Do these kids have an unfair advantage? Did they get a TUE to compete? No? But is this fair?? We had a thread a thousand posts long about Molly Seidel and adderall. Why do we care if she is on it and not these kids?
It doesn't matter if unfairness - cheating - call it what you will - happens at an international level or school or club level. If it is wrong in principle it is wrong anywhere. It's like honesty - it isn't only a virtue at the elite or most wealthy level. It begins with kids.
For the most part, this does not start until the onset of puberty. Any advantage that a trans athlete might have after suppressing puberty can be offset by the side effects of blockers.
You repeat these myths again and again on these boards, hoping that noone calls you out on it. So... I ask you once again, tell everybody about all the youth world records for track events that are held by girls over boys for each category aged 5-12, it'll really help your first point. The second point is just an absolute fabrication with no scientific grounding whatsoever that you have plucked from your posterior and hoped noone would call you out on.
Where would you propose the line be drawn? That is, if you were in charge, what is the highest level at which "who cares, it's not worth worrying about it here" would be the rule, and what is the lowest level at which "OK, now this is serious, no XY people in the female category" would be the rule? I'm honestly curious about this. Would the line be between high school and college?
Anything I might say will just be shouted down and I will be accused of being a misogynist, so I'll pass. For most on this board it seems the only solution that is acceptable is a complete and total ban on XY kids every competing in the XX category from the moment that such categories are made and regardless of the circumstances. No reason to propose something other than this on this thread. Nobody is listening nor persuadable and I would rather not get yelled at through a message board.
Couple things:
1) The cesspool LR is is not representative of the real world.
2) The transphobes on here, the majority, won’t have the courage of their conviction to air their thoughts in the real world because i) general decency that most people have that they easily shed online; ii) they’ll lose most half decent jobs and societal influence and be rendered a fringe nutcase to be avoided.
In the meantime, transympathetic viewpoints are not getting lost in the ether. Don’t forget that AI is training on all this text. Teach it good arguments, and don’t worry about retards yelling.
Where would you propose the line be drawn? That is, if you were in charge, what is the highest level at which "who cares, it's not worth worrying about it here" would be the rule, and what is the lowest level at which "OK, now this is serious, no XY people in the female category" would be the rule? I'm honestly curious about this. Would the line be between high school and college?
Anything I might say will just be shouted down and I will be accused of being a misogynist, so I'll pass. For most on this board it seems the only solution that is acceptable is a complete and total ban on XY kids every competing in the XX category from the moment that such categories are made and regardless of the circumstances. No reason to propose something other than this on this thread. Nobody is listening nor persuadable and I would rather not get yelled at through a message board.
I certainly wouldn't shout you down. I'd honestly like to know.
No, you keep missing the point. If you allow any one kind of unfairness you have no argument against any other. Unfairness is only called cheating when it is disapproved of. If males competing as females is disapproved of that is cheating, too. Which it is.
It's unfair that some athletes train at altitude and others don't. They should all have access to it or not.
It's unfair that some athletes have better coaches. They should all have the same coach.
It's unfair that some athletes have strength and conditioning coaches as well as recovery resources to help them better prevent and return from injuries. Everyone should get the same.
It's unfair that some athletes are paid enough that they do not need any secondary source of income that affects what they do the other 20 hours a day when they are not running. Every runner should be fully supported financially.
It's unfair that some athletes have parents who were both genetically set up for performance in endurance athletics. All athletes should have the same parents.
Do you allow any of this unfairness? Then by your logic, I should be able to wear rocket-powered skates because any ounce of unfairness means there are no rules.
Just stop. Let the girl run. If you disapprove of her running, it has nothing to do with fairness or a "slippery slope" or being consistent with enforcing "cheating." It's because you think transgender people are liars, insane, or have ill-intent to deprive women the opportunity to win races. You hate them, so you make up these reasons that don't hold water to keep them out.
No, you keep missing the point. If you allow any one kind of unfairness you have no argument against any other. Unfairness is only called cheating when it is disapproved of. If males competing as females is disapproved of that is cheating, too. Which it is.
It's unfair that some athletes train at altitude and others don't. They should all have access to it or not.
It's unfair that some athletes have better coaches. They should all have the same coach.
It's unfair that some athletes have strength and conditioning coaches as well as recovery resources to help them better prevent and return from injuries. Everyone should get the same.
It's unfair that some athletes are paid enough that they do not need any secondary source of income that affects what they do the other 20 hours a day when they are not running. Every runner should be fully supported financially.
It's unfair that some athletes have parents who were both genetically set up for performance in endurance athletics. All athletes should have the same parents.
Do you allow any of this unfairness? Then by your logic, I should be able to wear rocket-powered skates because any ounce of unfairness means there are no rules.
Just stop. Let the girl run. If you disapprove of her running, it has nothing to do with fairness or a "slippery slope" or being consistent with enforcing "cheating." It's because you think transgender people are liars, insane, or have ill-intent to deprive women the opportunity to win races. You hate them, so you make up these reasons that don't hold water to keep them out.
You abuse the meaning of the word "unfair". Not every advantage is unfair. Your having less intelligence than many other posters isn't unfair. But a runner having balls while competing as a woman is.
This post was edited 53 seconds after it was posted.
No, you keep missing the point. If you allow any one kind of unfairness you have no argument against any other. Unfairness is only called cheating when it is disapproved of. If males competing as females is disapproved of that is cheating, too. Which it is.
It's unfair that some athletes train at altitude and others don't. They should all have access to it or not.
It's unfair that some athletes have better coaches. They should all have the same coach.
It's unfair that some athletes have strength and conditioning coaches as well as recovery resources to help them better prevent and return from injuries. Everyone should get the same.
It's unfair that some athletes are paid enough that they do not need any secondary source of income that affects what they do the other 20 hours a day when they are not running. Every runner should be fully supported financially.
It's unfair that some athletes have parents who were both genetically set up for performance in endurance athletics. All athletes should have the same parents.
Do you allow any of this unfairness? Then by your logic, I should be able to wear rocket-powered skates because any ounce of unfairness means there are no rules.
Just stop. Let the girl run. If you disapprove of her running, it has nothing to do with fairness or a "slippery slope" or being consistent with enforcing "cheating." It's because you think transgender people are liars, insane, or have ill-intent to deprive women the opportunity to win races. You hate them, so you make up these reasons that don't hold water to keep them out.
You are seriously dim. My only view about trans people is that I think women's sports should be for female competitors, not those who imagine they are female.
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